I have decided that I am in the market for a new winter carry gun.
I'm pretty well-set for warm weather carry guns (i.e. guns that don't require a cover garment; typically pocket guns). I've got my Kel-Tec for when I really can't carry a gun, and two Smith & Wesson J-frames (a shrouded hammer for pocket carry and the Snubbie from Hell™ for special occasions...).
I'd been carrying my Smith & Wesson SW99C compact 9mm as a winter sidearm, but with the recent weight loss and concomitant reduction in my size, the double-stack grip just doesn't conceal well any more. There's a lot less "padding" to cushion the hard edges of a firearm, and I find that the thicker pistols tend to dig in more.
So I'm in the market for something in the single-stack variety. Revolvers are out (with the notable exception of the S&W 242ti, which I will buy on the spot if I ever find one), as I've got the aforementioned Snubbie from Hell™ which pretty much covers all wheelgun needs (I see no reason to double the weight for two more rounds). I'm looking for something slim, in a significant caliber (9mm or greater), that doesn't weight a ton. Sadly, since I live in the Volksrepublik of MA, choices are limited. Sure, it'd be great to pick up a Kel-Tec PF9 or a Walther PPS, but those are extremely rare here in MA, being as how they're not on the {spit} Approved Firearms Roster and as such can't be sold by dealers...
What to do, what to do... I've got it narrowed down to a handful of pistols:
1. Smith & Wesson SW1911SC/PD - scandium-framed, Commander-sized 1911. Pros are, well, it's a 1911; 8 rounds of .45 ACP goodness; it's a 1911; I already own several so I've got plenty of magazines and grips; it's a 1911; I shoot them well; it's a 1911; I'm familiar with the operation, care, and feeding; and did I mention it's a 1911? Cons are price (ouch) - even used models are $800+ and size - even in commander-configuration this is a large gun to conceal. I'm also not terribly comfortable with carrying a single-action pistol as a general rule.
2. SigSauer P239 in .40 S&W/.357 Sig. It's about the same weight as the SW1911, but smaller pretty much everywhere else. 8 rounds of .40 S&W or .357 Sig is nothing to sneeze at, even if it's not .45 ACP. Used models run about $500, so this is easily in my price range. Pros are Sig reliability and ease of operation/cleaning; cons are... well... I'd have to say the double-action trigger pull would be the only real "con".
3. Kahr PM40. I shot Liberty's P40 (ed.: correction noted; thanks Liberty!) at the bloggershoot and was mightily impressed. Recoil was definitely not bad at all; the gun fit my hand perfectly; accuracy was damn good (I hit the steel plate with all 7 shots). Pros are the weight - at just under a pound, this is the lightest gun on the list by a good 10 ounces (that's the P3AT, loaded, for a back-up gun!); size (smallest on the list); and DAO operation - the SW99 and P3AT utilize DAO, so I'm both familiar and comfortable with the operation. Cons are price, since this is MA and this gun is not readily available, they command a premium "in-state" - also means they're hard to come by.
4. Smith & Wesson CS series, either CS40 or CS45. CS40 is out of production but available; CS45 is a current S&W offering. Pros are that the CS45 is a current production gun that's MA-approved, meaning I can walk into pretty much any gun store and buy/order one at any time; at 23 ounces it's the second-lightest gun on the list and also the second smallest (Kahr being first in both categories); and price - the CS45 is selling new for ~ $600; used models can be found in the mid-$400s. Cons are just a general dislike of the S&W double action trigger and the poor availability of accessories (magazines, holsters, grips).
I'm open for any and all other suggestions, but please keep in mind that I am severely limited by the idiotic Approved Firearms Roster {spit}. Anything not readily available for sale is going to be both expensive and hard-to-find. My specs are single-stack, 9mm or greater, under 30 ounces, ideally 4" barrel or smaller. Any and all suggestions are appreciated, but don't yank my chain about "move to a free state". That shit gets old.
That is all.
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23 comments:
All good guns, but off that list, I'd grab the P239 in a heartbeat.
Utterly reliable, laser beam accurate, and easy to carry and conceal, with rounded edges and soft angles. It's by far my favorite SIG, and I kick myself every day for having traded my P239s in fits of utter stupidity.
The 9mm is fine, by the way, especially in the 239. You get one more round than in .40 or .357SIG, the recoil is easier to control (making follow-up shots quicker), the ammo is a *lot* cheaper, and ballistically, there's not much of a practical difference between a 9mm +P, a .40, or a .357SIG.
I've had P239s in 9mm (two), and .40 (two), and never had a failure out of either. The 9mm was a bit more pleasant to shoot, and a tad more accurate.
Damn...now I want to run out and find a used one.
Hey Jay - I have the P40, not the PM40. Paid just over $400 for mine, if I recall correctly, and it came with two magazines (6-rd and extended 7-rd). And a cute little card that tells me all sorts of stuff about how MA knows it's dangerous and it kills children!
I like the Kahr because it's very thin and carrying IWB it doesn't dig in. It took a definite break-in period of 200-250 shots before that trigger started feeling real comfy, too.
Let me know if you want to put some more rounds through it one of these days.
;-)
I like the Kahrs myself, but if you have a spare $1200 sitting around and would like to wait up to one year, the new Springfield EMP in .40 (http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=24 ) is a beaut. Normally, I am not a 1911-or-die-guy, but when I picked up the EMP, the angels sang.
Not that it is any consolation to you, but I like my new PPS - light, thin to the extreme, solid build, and shoots better than its operator. But, moving on...
Speaking from just fondling Kahr equipment at gun shows, frankly, that brand scares the bejesus out of me - it just feels absurdly cheap, and not in the frugal way. But, like I said, I have never shot nor carried one, and maybe they perform better than they appear.
Off your given list, I think I would go with the Sig. That said, while I am not familiar with MA's laws and stupid regulations, maybe the spreadsheet I put together a while back would be useful for you.
Wait... what the difference between the SIG 229 SAS and SIG 239 SAS? It's all comfy and dehorned to protect your valuable, sensitive, girl-like skin from being poked and such. One holds 12 .40 caliber beans vs. 7 or 8... Is the one a slimmer version of the other?
As far as availability goes, perhaps you could find a friendly FFL who will do a transfer for a reasonable fee, and purchase from someplace like rrarms, galleryofguns, or budsgunshop. Add the normal www and .com and you should get there just fine. Especially true with rrarms, if you don't put in the www it won't get to the gun site.
Marko,
I seriously *lurve* my P226 (going to buy some more pre-ban normal capacity magazines after work today, AAMOF). The P239 gets serious consideration just for that alone.
As for 9mm vs. 40 S&W pricewise, the difference isn't as sharp as it used to be. A WWB of 100 rounds is over $20 for 9mm and only like $24 for .40 S&W these days.
Plus, going with the .40 S&W gives me the option of buying a .357 Sig barrel for when I really want to rock 'n' roll... ;)
Liberty,
Thanks. Correction noted. I'd still prefer the PM40, as it's a bit smaller.
Unfortunately, the Kahr is a dark horse candidate because I would have to find a used one (pre-1998) or a new one FTF. In either case, I'm going to pay a hefty mark-up for it (I paid at least 50% over MSRP for my P3AT thanks to the idiotic MA laws).
Would DEFINITELY like to put some more rounds through it. Will try to figure something out before the snow falls (which, in your neck of the woods, starts sometime next month, right?) :)
andrew,
One problem with that: Springfield is not on the {spit} Approved Firearms Roster and as such cannot be sold in MA. The only way I could get one would be if someone living out of state were to buy one, then move into MA and sell it as a private transaction.
Which would most likely result in that $1200 gun selling USED for $1,500+...
I hate this state.
linoge,
I know a couple guys in NH who have PPSs. They both love them.
Unfortunately, I personally contacted the Walther/S&W rep about whether they'd be certified for sale in MA, and was told that they were not submitting the PPS for consideration.
I hate this state.
T-bolt,
The 229 is slightly larger. Think of it as the difference between a Glock model 19 (229) and 26 (239). The 229 is the mid-sized pistol, the 239 is the compact.
phillip,
The problem is, any FFL that transfers a non-Approved firearm will get fined $5,000 by the AG's office. None of which I am aware have shown a willingness to buck the system (and if you know of one, please e-mail the name to me, do NOT post it, as I will delete the post with extreme prejudice. We have proof that the AG trolls MA-based gun boards looking for such information. I shit you not).
I hate this state.
"That shit gets old."
It does?
You get an exemption, my friend.
I had a P40, purchased new. Tremendous potential, but by far the least reliable gun I have ever had personal experience with. One time it had 2 failures out of a box of 50, and that was the best it ever did. I had more failures with that gun than every other gun I have ever shot, combined. Fail to feed, fail to extract, fail to return to battery, fail to fire, mags fell out, slide locking back randomly, and finally one of the mags became a 2 round.
Some of them are apparently reliable, and I'd love one that worked, but I wouldn't buy another without either extensive test firing or a return privilege.
I would say Sig P225, but it's really not all that small for a single-stack 9mm.
I vote 1911, just 'cause.
I have to disagree on the 9mm. even though I beat the pants off my local police when we practiced together (cause I practiced a lot more than they did) I have no doubt that in a real-life shooting incident I'd be likely to only get 2 rounds into my target, probably the 1st 2.(adrenaline, surprise, etc)
Plus, as a crime reporter, I've just had too many cops tell me horror stories about 9mm hollow points. (guess where I used to bank? think 2 words..North and Hollywood). If, god forbid you actually have to shoot someone, you don't want to be forced to empty an entire mag into them to make sure they aren't still a threat. This is particularly true given the likelihood you'll have to answer to a grand jury later. If you put 8 rounds into the guy, even if was totally necessary, good luck convincing a Masshole jury it wasn't "excessive." (cough, spit, snarl)
So, guess what? yep, .45 is the way I'd go, with .40 S&W as a possible second choice.
As to specific weapons, you specified single-stack, so....um ...1911...er cough 1911..er um, well maybe you could try instead, a ...1911.
It's just hard to beat all the way round. cut-down versions are easily concealable, reasonably light, accurate at any range you'd be likely need in a righteous shoot. And if you only get 2 rounds in target..THAT'S ALL YOU NEED.
I pocket carried a 239 in 357 for years and thought it was too largefor pocket. Then it evolved to a Kahr P9 pocket, then tucked IWB. After my good luck with the tIWB scene, I went up to a G23, and currently a G32 is getting broken in now to replace the G23.
Since, um, 3 of the 4 listed aren't MA compliant, the 239 is a gem. Really, it stands well on it's own but I'm not thrilled with the DA/SA transition. Havent tried the DAK,etc, but the 239 will run like nobody's business. FYI, the 239 is just about the size of the G19/23/32.
I love the P9, the frontstrap bites well, it's compact, and remarkably easy to shoot. Mine has been 100%. Would it be worth a huge markup ? MMmmmmmmaybe if you were into slim and light.
Well... I googled the MA approved firearm list.
Not a lot to work with.
I think a commander sized 1911 is just fine, and pretty easy to CCW. I CCW'd my Colt M1991A1 Commander, when I still had it.
I CCW my full sized Walther P99, in .40 S&W.
Have you thought about the S&W new M&P line?
This dude at pistol-training.com has been testing one for S&W... This is week 17, 32,265 rounds, 2 stoppages... You can get the compact version, in 9mm or .40 S&W or .45 ACP.
Correction, the M&P isn't approved in the compact format with the .45 ACP caliber.
I'm not sure if they make the compact in .45 ACP...
I wish S&W would make a CCO pattern 1911 (Officers frame with commander slide). I'd buy one in a second. I have the 1911PD Gunsite edition (scandium frame commander) and love it, but the full size grip has a tendency to print.
Too bad about them not even trying with the PPS. I had hopes for that given how good Smith/Walther is with certifying stuff here.
sevesteen,
Okay, there's one vote decidedly against the Kahr... Like I said, it's a dark horse owing to the general inavailability in MA.
mike,
IIRC, the 225 is about the same overall size (length and height) as my 226, just a little thinner owing to the single-stack nature. It's also gotta be pretty darn heavy.
And they're not for sale in MA.
They are, however, quite affordable, which appeals to me; however until they're C&R eligible I'm SOL...
breda,
Why did I have a feeling you might say that? *g*
bill,
So that's a solid 2nd vote for the SW1911...
The only thing keeping me from buying one, really, is that when I took the factory tour at Smith & Wesson last year, we got a Q&A session with one of the marketing guys.
He said that not only was S&W coming out with a smaller (Defender) sized 1911, but that it would be MA compliant.
THAT is what I really want - something with a 6 round magazine and a 3½" barrel 1911 in the venerable .45 ACP.
wally,
If I'm going "off list", I want a Walther PPS. That thing is SLICK. It combines the best features of the SW99 family (polymer frame, easy take-down, etc) with a super-slim single stack body that's light and easy to carry...
freddyboomboom,
First off, the M&P is a double-stack frame. There's little to gain to go from the SW99 to the M&P.
Second, I shot an M&P 40c at the S&W shooting center when I took the tour last year and was decidedly unimpressed. The magazine fell out for no reason (on a half-dozen occasions in a single box of ammo!), accuracy was only fair (and I know it wasn't my shooting because I put 20-30 rounds through the X-ring using a very dirty model 41), and it just didn't feel... solid. It felt... cheap.
Besides, if I didn't buy one after the INCREDIBLE sale this spring - four factory mags and $50 rebate which brought the final price to $440! - I won't ever get one...
Actually, I was referring more to the fact that you said some guns were hard to come by, and I thought you meant that they were in high enough demand that you couldn't get them at the local store. I wouldn't urge someone to buy a gun that could get them fined or thrown in jail. I was just suggesting a way for you to get something on the list that your stores didn't carry.
Sorry for the confusion.
Single-stack, eh? I seem to recall that the Desert Eagle is a single-stack pistol;)
Srsly. All very good choices you've got. The Kahr is chingos concealable. I know several LEO's that ankle carry a K9 or P9 as a back-up. I've shot a few rounds from a K9. They's nice.
Course, who wouldn't want a scandium-framed 1911? Throw the scandium-framed J-Frame in the pocket and you're all kinda lightweight, and no one will accuse you of being short on stopping power;)
tweaker
Jay - I find that the P225 is MUCH easier to conceal than a P228, despite almost identical dimensions. It's much harder concealing a double-stack. The P225 is actually about .5" shorter in length and height than a P226.
But yeah, it's pretty much right at your 30oz. limit, and as you said, not on the MA approved list. I'd forgotten about that damn thing.
p239 in Sig .357. Hell and fury in a small package.
If it wasn't my FIRST carry gun (as opposed to a replacement like you're looking for) I'd feel kinda like a dick for snagging that S&W1911Sc from Four Seasons out from under your nose. (The price was REALLY good too)
So as a 1911 Freak the Commander Scadium 1911 get's my vote.
The other guns you list are all good choices...and Personaly I'd pick the Sig as the #2 because Sigs are kickass.
The Cheif Speical would be dead-last on my list because it has a DA trigger, AND a Manual Safety, AND a Magazine Disconnect. Of the first two features I'm stricktly one or the other, not Both, and of the 3rd its "Never on a defensive gun".
Overall I have the S&W1911Sc for weather when I can conceal a shoulder holster (I HATE BELTS!) and a S&W J-Frame (A 638 right now, but the wife might steal it soon, so I need to keep my eye out at the used racks.)
I wants me a PM45 SOOO bad, and I have a line on a resident comming in in the next few years....
Other than that not a lot really tickles my fancy.
I really LIKE the looks of the Para Warthog, and the few rounds I put through one were AWESOME...but its hard to find a good review of that gun....or really of Para in general...
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