Yes, it's another one of those "What Would You Do?" questions...
Okay. Here's the scenario. It's dusk, and you're in a decent area of town. Assume, for the sake of argument, you're standing outside of a restaurant having a smoke (or chatting with someone having a smoke). A person of questionable means (looks like a bum) crosses the street and heads towards you. He has his hand in his jacket pocket, and as he gets within earshot, demands your wallet/purse. You are a lawfully licensed CCW holder with your lawfully owned firearm on your person.
What do you do?
This is the kind of grey-area scenario that we need to be thinking about, IMHO. This is exactly the nebulous kind of situation where we need to have a plan in place before the ball drops. For me, there's a lot of variables that aren't apparent in this situation but require thought ahead of time.
What if he's got a loaded gun in his pocket, his hand on the trigger, and he's just itching to blow some rich person away?
What if he's got nothing but his own meathook in the pocket, and is no more dangerous than Mother Theresa?
Are you willing to gamble with your life that he doesn't have a weapon?
Are you willing to gamble with your freedom if he doesn't?
I'm not terribly willing to surrender my wallet. First off, my license with my home address is in it. I really don't want Chippy McCrackhead deciding to head to my house at 3 AM for an easy score. Second, there's a grey area in MA that makes the claim that if you do not have your LTC on your person when you have a firearm, then you are carrying illegally - felony illegally. In the absense of an immediate threat to my life, I'm reluctant to hand over the wallet (in the presence of an immediate threat to my life, someone's getting ventilated).
So here you are, face to face with Billy Boozebag and his jacket pocket. You've got to assess the threat, determine if its serious enough to employ deadly force, and put that force into use if necessary, all in the span of, what, 2-3 seconds? If that is a gun in his pocket, the momentary hesitation you show before action could be enough to cost you your life. If it's not a gun, and you draw your weapon (even without firing), you're opening yourself up to a world of liability.
I don't know the answer. There's a lot of variable in play, and I'd need to be staring Richie Reefer down before I made a move. In the absense of a visible weapon, I'd most likely take the chance and run like a scared jackrabbit - sure, in an ideal world, it would be perfectly legal to draw my Model 19 and pistol-whip the little bastard just for good measure. But we don't live in a perfect world, and I don't want to be explaining to my Chief of Police the felony stop I had performed on me in Boston because some disadvantaged youth stopped to ask me directions to the local Toys for Tots drive...
So what would you do?
That is all.
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13 comments:
I think this question is simpler than you think.
Once the "person of questionable means" demanded your wallet and implied that he had a gun, he committed armed robbery, whether he actually had a gun or not.
You are well within your rights to draw your weapon to defend yourself at that point.
As far as shooting goes? If me drawing my weapon and pointing at him had an appropriate effect, and I felt that I was in control of the siutation, I probably wouldn't shoot. On the other hand, if I still felt threatened by the person's behavior after I drew (after he committed armed robbery) I think shooting would be readily justified.
Whether he actually had a gun or not is immaterial, in a criminally legal sense. Here is where your knowledge of the law, and your ability to articulate how the other guy broke it will come into play.
You will get sued though, no doubt, even if he had a gun.
I don't like these kinds of questions, because you're forcing things on me that I don't allow to happen.
First off, if someone looking like that came up to me, I'd have already put my hand in my pocket and my J-frame would be IN my hand by then. Second, I'd have been watching him... and most robbers will not come up to you if they see you're alert.
That said... I still don't know what I'd do - there are all sorts of non-verbal cues that I'd be looking for. I might shoot, I might not. I might have turned and gone back into the restaurant once I saw him closing on me - I don't need a confrontation with Sammy Streetperson to round off my dinner.
Like Ross said, I think I'd have to be face-to-face with the situation before deciding what to do. Does Homer HoBo have that psychotic, homocidal glare in his eye? If so, it may not matter if I give up my wallet or no...he might off me and mine just for the hell of it anyway. If I saw him heading straight for me, I probably would have edged closer to the door and urged my smoker friend to hurry it up.
Of course, for me, this is rather a moot point, as I am not LTC, nor do I own a gun, though I am fairly proficient in martial arts and unarmed self defense. Not that you should ever bring your hands to a gun fight....And I would like to learn to shoot, as I enjoy those kinds of activity. Living in MD, near DC, makes it a bit tough.
Call me paranoid, but these are actually things I think about on a fairly regular basis. If someone (regardless of if they are in a suit or rags) seems like they are directly heading for me, I go through the various scenarios in my head...what are they going to do? If they do X, how will I react? What if they do Y? Where are my exits? What are my options? Is there anything around that I could use as a weapon if I needed it? Just a few of the things that rush through my head if I think that someone may be lookin for a confrontation. Not that it's ever happened that way, but I prefer to stay prepared.
I agree :
"Once the "person of questionable means" demanded your wallet and implied that he had a gun, he committed armed robbery, whether he actually had a gun or not."
He might not have a gun but the act of concealing his hand is a threat and he knows it. So, it looks like Shakes the Hobo gets to see the business end of a 1911.
Then it's time to call the police.
I'd draw, point the gun, and yell as loud as I could for him to get on the ground, face down. Any flinch to indicate otherwise will result in shooting until I feel that the threat has been nullified, also known as emptying the clip.
If he does get down on the ground, I'd immediately call 911. If the guy turns and bolts, I'd immediately call 911.
This happened to my friend outside of Clarke University in Worcester, MA. He drew his hand gun and the would be robber fled. My friend did NOT call the police. The robber turned around and had my friend arrested and claimed he had threatened him with the gun! Unbelievable chutzpah. My friend got off, but had to go to court and hire a lawyer, and paid significant out of pocket.
Since you're there outside a restaurant "at dusk" I'm assuming that the place is open. I'd just head inside and avoid the whole situation (obviously telling people to call 911). To me, avoidance is preferable, why escalate when you can walk away? If I had no where to safely go and he kept approaching then I'd draw and see how he responds.
I was taught in my martial arts training, you hand over the wallet. You're life is not worth risking for a wallet.
That said, my strategy is to toss the wallet behind and to the side of the perpetrator. Thus when they go to get the wallet, they either a) turn around or b) back away. At which point the action should give me a second or two more time to draw and subdue the attacker. As my wallet does have information both financial and locational that could cause harm to my family. Essentially telling the attacker to freeze and if he moves I'll put lead into him. When asked by the lawyer why I shot him? He moved. I was under the assumption that he was armed as he had insinuated such. When I told him to freeze, he moved - a show of threat. If they ask how is that a show of threat. I'll express that it was clearly a failure to comply. Not how I myself complied when a gun was pointed at me.
That's the pre-flight plan. Of course, if such does happen, who knows how it'll go down. Lord willing such an event will never happen. And my firearms will merely be sport, collectibles and heirlooms.
"What if he's got a loaded gun in his pocket, his hand on the trigger, and he's just itching to blow some rich person away?"
Exactly, I draw...he fires before I am able to complete my draw, point, and pull.
"Are you willing to gamble with your life that he doesn't have a weapon?"
Nope...
"Are you willing to gamble with your freedom if he doesn't?"
Not sure I understand the question?
Brad,
I understand that armed robbery does not require a weapon actually be shown. However, there's legal, and there's "going before a jury of your peers", also known as "people too stupid to get out of jury duty".
There's a world of grey area, though. We've all heard horror stories of CCW holders treated like criminals; of righteous shoots turning into jail time because the shooter used hollowpoints (I'm thinking specifically of the guy in WA - I think - who had a 10mm Glock).
My gut reaction would be to draw my CCW weapon and order the guy to the ground (I'd already have had my CCW handy when I saw him approach).
But living in MA, that's never cut-and-dry. Sure, other areas it's a little better, to be sure, but even then - all it takes is an overzealous DA (Mike Nifong, anyone) and all of a sudden you're a combination of Bernard Goetz, Travis Bickle, and Judge Dredd just because you dared to defend yourself.
And, to be perfectly honest, I'd rather not enrich a lawyer to prove I was well within my rights...
Ross,
I understand your apprehension, and for the most part agree - 99.9% of the time, the scenario is avoided simply by situational awareness and not looking like a victim.
But we aren't always 100% condition orange. Sometimes we let our guard down. Sometimes we get caught up in life. Which is why it's so critical to think of these things ahead of time IMHO.
The other thing to consider is, what happens when the guy *isn't* deterred by an agressive stance. It puts you on a higher state of alert, to be sure, but there's still that uncertainty of what he's got and/or is prepared to do...
roaming gnome,
Two things... There's a bunch of folks in the MD area who might be willing to help - check out New Jovian Thunderbolt or Another Gun Blog for two off the bat in your neck of the woods.
Secondly, you nail it exactly why I posted this - just to get some thoughts down and see what the general reactions are.
I honestly don't know exactly how I'd respond to my own hypothetical....
red,
See, that's how I'd like to respond if I lived in America.
IMHO, the right response is something like this:
[mugger] "Give me your wallet"
[me] "I can't"
[mugger] "Why not?"
[me] "Because my permit for this is in it"
[Glock 30] "HI THERE!"
Adam,
You nail it EXACTLY why I'd be hesitant. Even if you're 100% in the right; even if you really, honestly, are 100% justified in drawing your weapon and using deadly force, it's going to cost you.
Another thing to consider when going for a night out in a less-than-safe area would be a decoy wallet - carry along an old wallet with no idea you can toss and run...
Anon,
That's my "run like a scared jackrabbit" response.
Anytime I can get out of a situation without harm to myself, either physically or financially, I'm ahead of the game. I don't need to prove anything; I don't want to make a stand; I don't want to become a test case.
I just want to go home to my kids.
The Saj,
See my above responses for what I mean by legal issues... Basically getting raked over the coals in court and having to spend mucho dinero defending my actions...
Jay
"There's a world of grey area, though. We've all heard horror stories of CCW holders treated like criminals."
We have also heard stories where the police and DA did everything as they should. What you described is clearly armed robbery, I really don't see any grey. I can see your point as to how it could go sideways later on, but what ever happens in life that couldn't?
I would love to live the rest of my life without enriching lawyers more than I already have, (You know why divorce is so expensive? It's eff-in worth it, that's why.) but I would much rather err on the side of my own personal safety.
As a cop, one of the important mindset things we talk about is having your house in order. Make sure your loved ones know how you feel about them. Make peace with your God. Have a financial plan in place if anything every were to happen to you. Have a plan as to how to legally defend yourself after a critical incident.
Having your house in order allows you to be focused on the task at hand. Ideally, getting sued or prosecuted should be the farthest thing from your mind in these situations.
Do what needs to be done, focusing on your training and skills. Do this knowing that you are well equipped to handle things however they shake out.
And afterwards, call 911. Tell the cops you were robbed, and tell them you shot the guy. Then zip your lip and call your lawyer.
" I'm not terribly willing to surrender my wallet. First off, my license with my home address is in it. I really don't want Chippy McCrackhead deciding to head to my house at 3 AM for an easy score."
That is why I always carry two wallets. One that is hidden inside my clothing with my important items, drivers license, credit cards, ect. The other wallet that I carry in my back pocket has some cash, libary card, Sams card, ect. Since I purchase 98% of everything I buy with a debt card I also carry that in the outside wallet. But since I use this debt card everywhere, I had created seperate account at the local bank (with no ties to any other accounts I have) with a fixed limit of $500, so if gets stolen that is all I can possible lose.
WayneB
Bah. Two to the chest.
The scenario you described more than justifies me drawing and shooting.
I'm not gonna hope he's bluffing with that hand in his pocket, that's a good way to get dead.
"Two things... There's a bunch of folks in the MD area who might be willing to help - check out New Jovian Thunderbolt or Another Gun Blog for two off the bat in your neck of the woods."
I was going to recommend Matt from Armed Canadian if he's looking for an introduction to shooting. He's got lots of experience bringing newbies to the range and frankly I've been too busy to even get myself to the range lately.
As far as your hypothetical.
I agree with brad that you'd be within your rights to draw. That said, if I could quickly remove myself from the situation (enter the restaurant) I would do so.
BUM: Gimmie your wallet!
ME: Or what?
Is he threatens me with death or serious bodily injury, I tell him "OK here's my wallet" He's expecting me to reach for something. It just won't be a wallet that is presented.
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