There were two basic schools of thought presented. One school of thought was basically that the CCW holder has an obligation of sorts to society in general to step in and take out armed robbers in such a situation; the other school of thought (to which I ascribe) is that unless you or yours are personally in danger, or the situation escalates beyond strongarm robbery (i.e. the goblin starts assaulting people), it's best to sit it out in a state of readiness.
There's compelling arguments on both sides, IMHO. Taking immediate, decisive action against affronts to civilized society sends a clear message to the criminal element that it will not be tolerated; conversely, simply handing over the money emboldens the criminals. I can agree with this. If more people resisted; if more criminals wound up bleeding out on the convenience store floor; if their violence begat even more violence aimed at them, I agree that we'd all be better off (well, except the criminals, but I'm not too concerned about them).
On the other hand, I can see the "wait and see" angle - but speaking only as a citizen of MA. We've been told by our illustrious Attorney General that MA discourages "self-help" as a rule of thumb - and this was in regards to a case of a man who beat up the scumbag who molested his son. There's a legal - and financial - minefield in MA with regard to self-defense with a firearm in even the most clear-cut cases; coming to the defense of a third party gets heavily into a gray area.
My position - valid for MA only - is that in the absence of a clear and present danger to myself or others, I would not confront the goblin. I would make ready to confront him, discretely readying my sidearm if possible (or at least getting ready to draw); but in the absence of additional violence (above and beyond displaying the weapon), I would not take action. Should the goblin escalate the situation - say, by assaulting the clerk or other patrons - then it's on; if it's a simple strongarm robbery I'd be better served to take very careful note of the goblin for future identification.
Once again, I stress that this is valid only in MA and other locales where self-defense is actively frowned upon. In a state such as Florida, which has "Stand your ground" laws, I would take action (at least like to think I would; I hope and pray I never have to find out). Waving a gun around - whether it's loaded, unloaded, or a BB gun - presents a danger to all and sundry; it's the threat of violence and/or personal injury or death.
But here in MA, it's very likely that, were I to be the CCW holder who shot the robber, I would be arrested, jailed, and charged with murder. The recently deceased would be fĂȘted in the local news as a misunderstood youth who was just about to turn his life around; I, of course, would be portrayed as a vicious, bloodthirsty redneck gun owner who wanted nothing more in life than to live out my Travis Bickle fantasies and kill me some minorities. Go before a liberal judge - of which there are many in MA - and wind up plea-bargaining to manslaughter and sentenced to a decade in jail. My kids lose their father; my wife loses her husband; we lose our home in the landslide of legal bills resulting in the defense of my actions and the civil suit served by the goblin's next-of-kin.
My actions would stand a very good chance of causing my family - the very people I am directly responsible for - to suffer.
Maybe I am selfish, but I'm not putting my life, my freedom, and the safety and security of my family on the line to defend a stranger from a potential assailant. My first and foremost responsibility is to my family, me and my own. It is imperative that I be there for them, to shape and guide my children, to provide for them, to be present and active in their lives in their formative years. And I can't do this from a jail cell. I am not willing to give up everything I've worked for my entire life in defense of another not in my immediate circle.
And I hate that this state forces me to make this decision.
That is all.
16 comments:
"Maybe I am selfish, but I'm not putting my life, my freedom, and the safety and security of my family on the line to defend a stranger from a potential assailant."
Nothing at all wrong with that as it's your choice. What if there's a potential assailant threatening a child? Say, 10-12 years old by your estimation? Just curious ... gets ya thinking, don't it? There are some tough split-second decisions.
They point at, threaten, or even make a rude face at a kid, they get a 230 grain attitude adjustment.
That's non-negotiable. And I'll stand before a judge or the face of G-d Himself and answer to it...
"The recently deceased would be fĂȘted in the local news as a misunderstood youth who was just about to turn his life around; I, of course, would be portrayed as a vicious, bloodthirsty redneck gun owner who wanted nothing more in life than to live out my Travis Bickle fantasies and kill me some minorities."
I couldn't agree more. Here's a link to some idiots in Oakland who think that pieces of garbage have the right to shoot others. I threw up a bit when I read someone describing the dirtbag as "a soldier".
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/police_shot_calif
I try and judge on a sliding scale. If I'm at my bank and they are robbing it, with a gun to the head of any useless teller, who am I to stick my nose into their business. But if they go after the one competent clerk? Mag dump!
If you've answered this before just circular file this.
Why the He** do you still live in Massachusetts? Come on down to Virginia. We could use you to drive out the liberals that are turning this commonwealth blue. Heck, I'd even pay for my own gas to help you move.
Stretch,
I would move out of this state in a New York minute if Mrs. G. agreed.
She doesn't.
Ain't leavin' without my kids...
It's a choice EACH of us must make based on where we live and I'm sorry that you live in Mass and have to make those choices...
~10 years ago I had the opportunity to intervene in a situation.
At the risk of being labeled a jerk, or worse -
Driving southbound on 495, on my way to a rifle match, carrying evil post-ban naught magazines. Northbound side of the road, LEO had a car stopped. Driver of the car holding a gun on the LEO, LEO's arms above his head.
I stopped within 100 yards, in the breakdown lane. Easy as pie to take the shot.
Three things popped into my mind.
1) my mags were questionably legal, so i'll go to jail for some length of time.
2) would be really tough to justify a 100yd+ shot as I was not directly at risk (and MA has/had some queer thing where you can't help LEO unless they specifically ask)
3) the LEO knew what he was getting into when he chose his career.
I put the jeep in gear and drove on down the road.
I was giving a class a few years ago to some people who wanted to get their Ohio CCW licenses. The talk got around to "What If?" subjects, as it always does. ("What do I do if a guy has a knife? What about if he just says he has one?")
When is lethal force justified? To save your life or the life of another. Simple enough.
But I was a bit taken aback when everyone in the class avowed that they wouldn't lift a finger to help another. Let the murder occur right in front of them, their plan was to sit it out and wait for the criminal to turn their vile attentions on someone they cared about.
I kept my mouth shut because everyone has to make that decision for themselves. But to just stand there and watch an innocent person get their lives taken from them? That just isn't the way I roll.
Of course, I might be a statistical outlier on this subject.
James
I have thought it over logically, and concluded that in such a situation, I should not draw attention to myself and let Mr. Dipshit J. Baptiste take the money.... problem is, I'm a natural born smartass, and could not have resisted the inborn urge to ask some stupid question, such as "Bit warm fer a ski-mask in Florida, ain't it?", and Dipshit would have pointed his .380 in my direction, and I would have drawn my 9,and Dipshit would have shot me and I'd have focused on my front sight and killed him..... pretty much he way it went down for Our Hero......
sorry but someone that has crossed the line and is committing an armed robbery in my immediate presence is a clear and present danger to myself and everyone around me... that he is currently not pointing the gun at me is irrelevant... he has already shown disdain for most of societies laws, to think that he cares about the ones that cover murder would be stupid as hell...
i would see no choice but to draw and shoot...
now i am not saying that i would rush to the front of a walmart if i was in the back and it got robbed... but if im within 50ft, you bet your ass i will do every thing i can to make sure that i go home... and since i have no idea whether or not the robber wants to kill everyone or not, i must assume that he does...
I guess i should add... about 50% of the time, i open carry... while in FL that wouldnt be legal, it is in my state... so in the case mentioned i would already have to assume that the robber knew i was armed and had seen the weapon... thus i would be his first target after he makes his initial robbery demand.
I wish the people of MA would take their state back.
"I wish the people of MA would take their state back."
With all due respect to our host, the people of MA *have* the government they want.
Keep in mind that this is the same state that has re-elected "swimmer" Kennedy for over 46 years.
Great post J.G. I can understand why someone who doesn't live here just can't beiieve that the average person in Massachusetts says, "A gun ?, Why would you ever want a gun ?".
People here vote for politicians who raise taxes.
Its bizarro world.
Flee while they will still let you.
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