Okay. I've got a hankerin'...
(You know this is gonna be a good one, dontcha?)
I've been thinking about picking up a pistol-caliber carbine for plinking/SHTF/home defense duty. Cheaper ammo, lighter weight, less recoil, and the ability to shoot the carbine on the pistol range (and at the indoor public range) are all factors in this decision. Plus, having a pistol-caliber rifle that I can start new shooters (including TheBoy) for their first centerfire rifle experience can only be a good thing.
Simply put, there's a lot of reasons to add a pistol-caliber carbine to the armory.
The harder question, then, becomes which pistol caliber carbine? Do I scour Gunbroker looking for a Camp Carbine in .45 ACP that's not either beaten to death or astronomically priced? Do I fork over the price of a good used car for a USC - and then search for neutered magazines at insane prices? Go for the retro Thompson, or perhaps even an Uzi? Another M1 carbine, perhaps one I can throw a synthetic stock on? What to get, what to get...
I've more or less decided to stick with something chambered in 9mm, as it's still the least expensive centerfire round in common use. This limits me to essentially three levels of choices:
1. High end. Uzis, MP5 semi-auto (i.e. Bobcat), Beretta Storm. The Beretta's the most likely candidate from the high-end offering, as I have no intention of dropping $1,500 on a used Uzi or Bobcat. The Storm takes the model 92 magazines, which even in MA are plentiful for pre-bans. The gun is modular, easy to clean, and well-made.
2. Middle-of-the-road. There's really only a couple of offerings here, the Ruger PC-9 and the Kel-Tec Sub2000. The Ruger is hampered by the lack of large capacity magazines plus the general scarcity of aftermarket accessories, while the Kel-Tec has both the advantage and disadvantage of the folding mechanism. It's a neat trick that allows the rifle to be packed small, but with Kel-Tec's reputation for less-than-refined machining, it seems more complicated than it need be.
3. Entry level. This would be the Hi-Point line. The advantage of the Hi-Point boils down to price - it can be had for around $200, new. Of course, you're still getting a Hi-Point, essentially the Kia of firearms. For another $100 or so you can get the Storm-lookalike stock, putting you into a similar-looking firearm to the storm for about half the price if you're so inclined.
I've got a line on a Sub2000 9mm with some goodies. It's offered at a reasonable price given what it comes with, and seems like it might fill the above need nicely. I just can't decide if it's worth taking the chance on Kel-Tec quality, fit, and finish for what is essentially a novelty. Does anyone out there in blog-land have any experience with the Sub2000, either good, bad, or indifferent? How about Kel-Tec customer service if needed? There's a lot of "what-ifs" about this set-up, and if I can get a few of them answered I'll probably toss out an offer.
Because it sure would be nice to have a pistol-caliber rifle...
That is all.
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32 comments:
I have been thinking along the same lines. The only pistol caliber carbines available around here are high end, with the Beretta being the least expensive of the lot.
I'd like to have a look at the Kel-Tec, but I don't know of anyplace near me that stocks it.
The search goes on......
I am thinking .30 cal M1 carbine - then get a 6 shooter that takes .30 Carbine. Real gun, real history.
I highly approve of the Hi-Point, you can look styling too!
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u172/witin/NES%20July%202009%20Shoot/DSC_0227.jpg
Marlin in .357, but you already have lever guns.
Mongo,
The Beretta's a great choice IMHO. It's got Beretta quality, breaks down quickly and easily without tools, and shares magazines with the 92, one of the most common pistols out there.
The Kel-Tec is definitely an option too, especially the model that takes Glock 17 magazines...
libertyman,
I've got a couple M1 carbines already - I've been thinking of getting a new stock for my Universal and getting that back in the rotation.
Thing is, .30 carbine is WAY more expensive than 9mm for generic plinking, and doesn't offer a whole lot more ballistically than a 9mm +P+.
Witin,
Thanks for the plug for the Hi-Point. I like the price ($159 in the latest flyer), but not a huge fan of the proprietary 10 round mag. Kinda defeats the purpose of having the pistol caliber to be limited to 10 rounds...
Borepatch,
Believe me, a .357 lever gun is on the list of "Guns Jay Will Someday Own". Just a little too pricey right now...
A semi Uzi should not be over $900.
+ another one for a Marlin .357. Most of the ones I've seen/ used would feed .38spl for cheap practice.
emdfl
Speaking of M1 carbines.... Aim got in a shipment of food for them yesterday. Aguila .30 Carbine 110grn FMJ, just like CMP sells. Aim wants a bit more money then CMP, but Aim has it, and CMP is backordered 6 months. At least Aim had it last night. I tried not to buy all of it leave some for others.
As fas as the Sub2000 goes, I think Oleg Volk has one. Might shoot him an email. I'm a satisfied Kel-tec customer, but don't have one of those.
I'd vote the Sub-2000. I haven't heard any real bad things about it (I think they weeded out the design faults from their previous generation carbine) Plus, come on, you put a P3AT in your pocket all the time.
And they eat from Glock 17 or Sig 226 mags which are easy to get here.
You could always go with a pistol caliber AR-15.
Personally I think a 10mm carbine sounds like fun.
Have had students use the SUB2000 for classes and have not had problems with them. I have multiple KelTec's myself and other than fit and function on one of them, have not had problems with them either. As far as service goes, KelTec CS is hard to beat. They are responsive, they had me send in the one I had trouble with and they stamped a new frame and sent me a new gun.
I missed the part about a Sub2000 being offered that takes Sig 226 magazines.
That substantially tilts the deck in favor of the Kel-Tec, seeing as how I have a Sig 226 and about 10 15 round pre-ban mags.
I think a trip to Carl's or North Shore Firearms might be in order...
MSRP is $406; if I can get one for around that (or ideally a little less), I'm sold...
I bumped into a NICE used Uzi carbine last night for 7 bills... drop me an email if that sounds like you...
Another satisfied Kel-Tec Sub2k owner here.
Sorta. The plastic front sight on mine broke pretty easily. I was just tightening down the lone nut that holds it in place after adjusting the point of aim when it happened. Ended up grinding the whole thing off and putting a whole new front sight housing on it.
I'm sure if I called Kel-Tec they'd have sent me a new sight, but I didn't want that happening again.
I snagged my Sub2k for $250 from a dealer that was closing shop. Regular price was $300.
Pretty sure I only paid $420 for my Marlin in .357 5 years ago too.
Good Lord prices change quick!
+1 on the Kel-Tec. I had one for years, and still wish I hadn't sold it. I'm actually on the lookout for one that takes Beretta 92 mags.
Fit and finish are not perfect, and the ergonomics are less than perfect, but it will go bang every time. There's a decent, growing list of add-ons, as well.
-Chris
Jay, have you thought about a 9mm upper for an AR ? Preban mags are easy to come by (uzi mag with a new slot)
Rock River also makes a 9mm AR with a dedicated lower to take glock mags.
I have heard good things about the keltec too.... But I guarantee that my 9mm AR will be at the blogshoot and I'd be offended if you didn't run some ammo through it!
http://www.usgunowner.com/photohost/is.php?i=670&img=aDSC02130.JPG
Jay, hit this particular conundrum myself a couple years ago. Here's my not-so-humble opinions having handled all three and shot two of the ones on your list.
Hi-point - Fugly gun. Funny mags that don't work in anything else. But once you get around the styling, you see it's the AK47 of pistol caliber carbines. The parts are very basic and way overbuilt, there isn't much that can break besides springs. Triggers are nasty, creepy and heavy, but the one I shot went bang with every piece of crap import ammo we through at it. But it's still fugly.
Sub-2000 - The one thing that turned me off from this gun was the location of the latch used to fold it... it's the trigger guard! Push forward on it, or snag it on something, and it folds in half. Sorry, but no thanks, even though it shot well. Maybe if there was some kind of two-stage push-this-in-and-hold-then-unlatch mechanism I'd be a little more agreeable.
The Beretta - Handles nice, well built, but it still looks like a space gun. It does have potential though. No complaints except the price tag.
So what did I get? None of 'em! I bought a Marlin 1894C in 38/357. With a little practice, it's almost as fast as a semi, 38's are every bit as mild as 9mm, plus easy to reload. Then if you want to step it up, load 357's and you've got a whole 'nother animal. The only thing mine won't feed well is wadcutters. Oh darn. I'm missing out on so much.
It can be quiet, basically a little bigger than a 22, right on up to being a deer thumper. You can't go wrong. Besides, there's also the whole "do you really want your son learning with a semi-auto" bit? You can single-load the Marlin. Open the bolt, drop one in, close and fire. Multiple follow-up shots can some later.
Gotta side with the lever gun guys on this one. And if you get a .45 lever gun you'll HAVE to get revolvers to match. A S&W Model 25, a Ruger New Vaquero … well, you get the idea.
Well, if you are interested in Rick's route, I'll have a Marlin 1894SS at the blog shot you can try. It's in .44 so it's got a fun kick with the magnum loads.
Jay, just ran across somebody online looking to sell a Camp Carbine in 9mm for $315 shipped.
Should I try and put you two kids in touch?
Jay, do you still have my personal Email?
Drop me a line if you plan on hitting Carl's, it's not far from my place.
Justin,
No thanks. If I were getting a Camp Carbine it'd be a 45...
Weer'd,
I'm still in the thinkin' 'bout it stage. When it comes time to orderin', I'll let you know.
Oh the AR bit got me thinking.
Do you consider .450 Bushmaster a Pistol Caliber?
(If you don't, we both know EddieCoyle on NES does!)
I've got the HiPoint 995. Great range toy. Steel plates are a hoot. Cheap-ass red dot sight on mine. Eats anything.
And their customer service has been exemplary. A magazine wasn't feeding right, I dropped them an email, had a reply the same day saying "send it in, we'll replace it". I had a replacement magazine the following week, no charge.
Yeah, it's ugly. Yeah, it's a pain to strip (I haven't taken it all the way down). But it's fun and cheap to shoot. Presuming I make the BlogShoot it'll come along and you can try it out.
Jay, here is another vote for the lever gun. I have both a Winchester 1894AE in .357 and a Marlin 1895P in .44 and I love em both. The Winchester with mild .38s in it is pretty darn quiet, and has almost no recoil.
That said, the 1894 is a long action, and is a bit slow with pistol cartridges. I think there are some Italian or Brazillian 1892 replicas out there that are supposed to be decent, and not too pricey, and that action is reportedly much slicker with pistol cartridges.
Jay, don't go near the Camp in .45acp. I sold mine on Gunbroker a couple months ago for $595, and was damn glad to be rid if it.
Bought it used, but new conditon. Then, while shooting at the late Airboss' "Area .45" ranch with KdT and Doc Russia, I literally shot the barrel off of the damn thing.
Yep, a rapid fire string, and the torque of the round on the rifling generated enough impulse to unscrew the barrel from the receiver to the tune of about 20 degrees.
So, I had my local smithy open it up, install some Wolff springs, and reseat the barrel. Result? It did it again.
The next logical step was to send it directly to Marlin. They sent it back with a letter declaring it unrepairable.
Finally, I had another 'smith up in Austin go through it in detail and get it ready to sell. He did, it worked and fired fine, but I got rid of it at the first opportunity.
The Camp line of carbines is just loaded with solvent-sensitive internal parts and assorted pot-metal MIM castings. It's not as robust as Marlin's cheapest .22, including the stock, which is widely known to split at the wrist from the force of the heavy, straight-blowback bolt slamming into the rear of the receiver.
And, though the thought of interchangably using 1911 mags is appealing, the real world limitation of that in a defense carbine is FAIL, of the EPIC variety.
Given that a successful use of a defensive carbine will result in the seizure of said weapon as evidence, I vote for the Kel Tec.
Ultra reliable, and no tears shed as it molders away in some evidence room for a decade or more.
Which is also why my nightstand gun is a well-worn Smith & Wesson model 10 (heavy bbl), loaded with Federal 125 gr. Hydra Shock (+P).
I can absolutely depend on that gun, but it's not rare, collectable or emotionally significant to me as my Model 28, which I would be loathe to lose.
Same reason I'm lookng for a well used Mossy pump 12 ga to keep near the bed. Not disposable as such, but very highly replaceable.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled broadcast.
Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX
Jay,
I've got the Hi-Point too, and as mentioned above...it's the AK-47 of the genre.
And mine shot 1.5" groups with WWB ammo out of the box at 25 yards.
I think Chris said "If it's ugly, but works, maybe it's not so ugly..." or some such.
Jim,
Excellent advice all around. I'd heard those types of complaints about the Camp Carbine, which is why when one became available locally for ~ $500 I passed.
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of the Kel-Tec that takes the Sig magazines (since I already have a bunch, plus a matching pistol...)
And at an MSRP of ~ $400, if it does wind up getting impounded, I won't lose any sleep.
Kinda like the G30 I carry. If (G-d forbid) I ever need to use it, it won't break my heart to have it taken into evidence...
One thing to remember is the range on any of these choices. I have fired a couple of 9mm carbines, and they delivered reasonable groups at 50 yards.
They were useless at 100 yards. We put up a large cardboard sheet to see where they were hitting, and to get on paper we aimed 3 feet over the target. They had lost velocity and tumbled through the paper with no real pattern.
Hotter ammo might help, but my experience with them did away with any interest in buying one.
I love my Kel Tech that takes P226 mags plus you can order different mag catches for it. (Glock Beretta Sig....) Mine was at a local dealer for sometime so it didn't have the updated brass deflector, emailed Kel Tech and 3 days later had the part no charge.
Jay,
Here is the website for Kel-Tec Sub2k complete with the available set ups.
http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/sub2000.htm
Indeed the Sig 226 is listed.
For what it's worth, I've got one that will take Glock 17 magazines and love it.
MSPR is just over $400, but I paid 319 when I picked mine up about a month ago.
--Jim
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