The conversation then turned to carrying a .25 ACP handgun for self-defense in general, with the point being made that it was better than nothing. My point, and the reason for this post, is that the Kel-Tec P3AT and Ruger LCP make the .25 ACP mouseguns a relic of the past; with the advent of inexpensive self-defense pocket guns in .380ACP, there is simply no reason to fall back on an anemic round like the .25 ACP.
For this exercise, I'll compare a Colt Junior (.25ACP) with a Kel-Tec P3AT (.380ACP). These two firearms were chosen on the basis of being available from my armory without having to dig too deeply... :)
They will be compared for size,weight, ammo capacity, and cost.
Size:
Colt Jr vs. Kel-Tec P3AT: Size
The Colt is the winner here, although by less than an inch at the most. The two guns are pretty evenly matched for height, but the P3AT is definitely longer.
Weight:
Colt Jr vs. Kel-Tec P3AT: Weight P3AT
Colt Jr vs. Kel-Tec P3AT: Weight Junior
No contest. The Kel-Tec wins hands down, a full three ounces lighter than the Colt. 11.2 ounces with loaded magazine - 0.8 ounces less than the Snubbie from Hell™ empty!
Ammo capacity:
Colt Jr vs. Kel-Tec P3AT: Ammo
The Colt wins on capacity, barely - the Junior has 7+1 capacity, whereas the P3AT has 6+1. I have a +1 extension for the P3AT, but it doesn't reliably feed every single time, so I keep the magazine standard. It's possible that I got a bad extension or magazine, but for now, the Colt has a one round lead.
However, that's comparing eight rounds of .25 ACP to seven rounds of .380 ACP. If I'm betting my life, I'll take the seven rounds of .380 ACP anyday of the week - it's what I consider to be the bare minimum in self-defensive chamberings. There's also a better array of defensive rounds for the .380ACP vs. the .25ACP, and the .380 has less issues WRT expansion of hollowpoint rounds. There's also the option of .380ACP +P.
Cost:
To the best of my knowledge the only new gun out there in .25 ACP is the Beretta Bobcat. Other than that, it's used for any other gun. Prices are all over the map, with pristine Colt Vest Pocket 1908s or Baby Brownings selling for upwards of six bills. Even the used Berettas are selling for $250 at a minimum. Whereas the P3AT has an MSRP of $324, and I've seen them in gun stores for as low as $275. The LCP has an MSRP of $347 and is selling for ~ $50 - $75 more than the P3AT.
Advantage: Kel-Tec.
I think the facts bear out that there's simply no reason to carry a .25ACP pistol rather than a pocket .380. The .25 is heavier, costs more, and has a less-powerful round. The slight size and capacity advantages are certainly offset by the extra heft and lesser penetration; additionally, the more modern design of the pocket .380 allows for safer carry of the loaded firearm.
In any case, the old saws apply - a .25 in the hand beats a .45 in the safe at home any day; shot placement is key; shoot what you're comfortable with...
That is all.
16 comments:
Jay,
I think the facts bear out that there's simply no reason to carry a .25ACP pistol rather than a pocket .380.
I can think of one reason for it: I have a .25ACP but I don't have a pocket .380.
Before I purchase a pocket .380, I need to get the wife a carry piece and CHL, I would prefer my daughter start carrying also so to motivate her I've decided if she wants to then I'll purchase a carry piece for her.
So, I carry the .25 instead of spending bucks I don't have on a pocket .380.
I wonder how many others are in the same boat.
A ballistics table of muzzle energy shows:
.25 at 55ft/lbs,
.380 at ~150ft/lbs,
.38 at ~200 ft/lbs., and
.357 at ~420ft/lbs.
There are .22LR rounds with ~150ft/lbs of muzzle energy, and velocities around 1400 ft/sec. A small handgun chambered in .22LR would easily be preferable to one in .25ACP.
That being said, your closing comment is right, "The .25 in your pocket is infinitely more valuable than the elunium pu36 explosive space modulator in the safe back on Mars."
Bob,
An excellent point of course. If you have a .25 ACP and can't afford a pocket .380, then by all means.
ASM826,
Exactly. If you don't carry it regularly, the large-bore high-capacity wunder-gun is useless. If you don't practice with the unobtainium revolver because it feels like catching your hand in a vice, then it's not going to serve you.
It's just that, all else being equal, there's no replacement for displacement...
I think a similar comparison between the SnubbieFromHell and the P3AT would be pretty interesting, have you done that before?
95% of the time I carry an M&P compact IWB and the rest is pocket carry of the SnubbieFromPurgatory. I may pick up a pocket pistol at some point, but it's pretty far down the list. If the Boberg XR9S delivers on its promise, I'm going to want one pretty bad.
I just sold my LCP and picked up a Kahr P380.
The Kahr is pricey as hell, and I had to do some minor gunsmithing on it to get it to work right, but now I just love it.
My handloads are 90gr XTP hollowpoints at 1000fps - that's 200 ft/lbs and even with the tiny sight radius on the kahr I can put 6 rounds into a paper plate at 25 yards.
I'd much rather have a bazooka for protection, but for a tiny gun that's so small you forget you're carrying it it's pretty sweet.
Whatever you decide to carry, it is a truism that you are betting your life on that gun. One issue with the small automatics is reliability. If you carry one, shooting it enough to be sure it will function every time is important, as is regular practice to stay familiar with operation, sights, point of aim, etc.
My regular carry is a Ruger SP101.
This is a 5 shot .357 with a 3" barrel.
It is a touch too big for regular pocket carry, I carry it strong side in a concealed holster. I carry a speed strip to reload, but really, it's a 5 shot revolver.
I carry it, it conceals well, and I practice with it enough to feel confident of it's accuracy and my ability to use it.
Also one must also look into 9x19 and .40 S&W small guns like Kahrs, (Who also make the PM45 which is about the same size and only a hair heavier than my S&W642 snubbie) Kel-Tec's P9, Walther PPS ect, small guns that can fit in most pockets can be had in duty-gun chamberings!
Again whatever gun you carry is better than no gun, and there isn't a gun out there, including air-pistols that I'd be willing to go down range and catch, so what you're arguing is probability, and nothing more.
And nothing grants 100% safety!
Still I'd prefer a mouse gun in 9x19 if I can't get that PM45 (Here's to the repeal of the handgun roster!)
Atrocious trigger and doesn't fit my paws is my vote against the P3AT. I went with the much heavier P238 so I could feel like I could hit the bad-guy.
Oh, and MUCH more expensive too. SIG is damn proud of their Mustang clone.
It is lighter and cheaper than the Colt .380 Pocket Hammerless it replaces though.
Reasons to carry a .25:
1. It's the only gun you have.
2. You can't handle the snappier recoil of something larger.
3. The tip up barrel of the Beretta allows people with minimal hand strength to load the gun when they might not have the strength to rack a slide or pull a DA trigger.
I don't own a .25 and have no intention of buying one. However if forced to choose between a .25 and a .22LR in the same size package, I'd choose the .25 every single time. The .25 ACP cartridge was designed by John Browning to be reliable in the small guns and I have seen too many .22 auto's jam or not fire at all due to ammo. Besides I suspect that out of a 2" barrel, the .22lr no longer has any significant ballistic advantage:
.25 ACP (From the Winchester site): 45gr expanding point, 815 fps, 66 FPE, 2" barrel
.22 LR (From Goldenloki.com): 32 gr CCI Stinger, 1001 fps, 71 FPE, 2.75" barrel
Having said all that, I very rarely go smaller then a Kahr PM-9 with CCI 124gr Gold Dot's
My S&W M-28 Highway Patrolman, in a pancake holster, is a proven, reliable, and suprisingly concealable companion.
Pity it weighs in at, oh, about six PT-3ATs though.
Maybe that's the solution? To hell with reloads, just carry a buncha P3s stashed in every pocket, pouch and holster.
Spare mag? Bleh. Spare GUNS!
Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX
Good post. I like the way you tried to cover all bases.
All the bases except .32. I really like the Kel Tec .32 more than the .380. Like most (based on monitoring KTOG.org) I carry it loaded with FMJ rounds. I put a 100 rounds a month through it at the range and I'm very happy with the accuracy as I've gotten used to the long DA trigger.
"catching your hand in a vice"
Oooh, that's a nice Freudian typo you've got there! :-)
Thanks for the face-off...
I have a .380 Ruger LCP but recently switched to carrying a Commander sized 1911. See http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/?p=6366 for initial impressions.
WRT 380 vs .24 ACP....
One thing I've noticed, at least in my area... I can buy .25ACP. I haven't seen a round of .380 in months.
A respected mentor of mine was a career clandestine services officer who served from the post-WWII cold war period through the Vietnam era, having survived many missions, retiring to die peacefully at home in his bed.
He taught me that a handgun's purpose is to neutralize an immediate threat from contact range to ten feet to facilitate escape. "Shoot and scoot." If you stand and fight, "you won't live long enough to shoot them all."
Harry carried whatever handgun was common among criminal elements in the country where assigned. This usually meant a .32 ACP or 7.65mm automatic, because an M1911 or S&W revolver made it plainly obvious that he wasn't a local.
While a .32 ACP is not your first choice for defense, the first rule of gunfighting is to HAVE A GUN. In that scenario any gun is better than no gun at all.
A .32 auto pistol is easier to control to produce rapid, accurate double or triple taps, compared to a .380 pistol of the same size carrying one less round. Shot placement and penetration are most important. Light hollowpoint bullets which expand do not provide adequate penetration to penetrate heavy clothing and reach vital organs. Comparing European hardball in the .32 ACP to typical .380 hardball fired from short barrels any difference in performance not important. RWS, Geco, Fiocchi, Privi Partisan or Sellier & Bellot 73-gr. hardball in .32 ACP produce about 900 f.p.s. from pocket pistols such as the Beretta Tomcat, whereas .380 hardball from a similar mousegun seldom exceeds 800 f.p.s.
European militaries and police organizations carried .32 ACPs for decades and felt they were quite adequate. German police were still carrying the .32 ACP well into the 1970s.
My own experience testing various .32 pocket guns is that no JHP loads available today expand at from a barrel shorter than 3inches. Ammunition loaded with 60-gr. bullets has a reduced recoil impulse compared to hardball an d will fail to cycle pistols balanced for hotter European CIP hardball ammunition loaded with 73-74 grain bullets.
The best pistols for pocket carry should enable safe carry with the chamber loaded, and should be cable of immediate firing by stroking the trigger without having to manipulate an external safety. In the event of a misfire, the trigger mechanism should enable an immediate repeat strike upon the primer by repeating the trigger stroke. Pocket pistols which meet these criteria are the Walther PP and PPK. Mauser HSc and Beretta Tomcat.
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