Dear Jay,
I am a reader of your blog, and I was wondering what you thought about a certain issue. I am an avid shooter (mostly shotgun, but sometimes pistol) who is turning 21 shortly. I am an NJ resident and I am considering applying for a FL CCW so that I would be able to carry a pistol in most of the states I visit outside of NJ. I figure that having the permit may benefit me sometime within the next 7 years of my life.
1. Do you think it is worth the time, money, and effort to do this?
2. I am a student at a college in CT. (I'd rather have the FL permit than CT because it is accepted in more places and I don't anticipate ever bringing a gun up here anyway.) When I apply to graduate school, do you think that the school will be able to see that I have a permit when they do a background check on me? In other words, I am worried about being denied admission for political reasons. (If this is the case I may have problems anyway because I have an NJ FID card).
If you don't have time to address this, don't worry about it. But if you should decide to publish anything about this, please leave my name out of it.
Well, I left the gentleman's name out, but decided to respond in the open here because he poses some interesting questions, and questions that I think others might have a better answer for.
His first question is the more contentious in my opinion. Is it worth it for him to get the FL non-resident permit that will allow him to carry a firearm (outside of his home state)? My initial response is that this is a deeply personal question that, really, only he can answer. The permit costs $117 ($75 for permit and $42 for fingerprinting), which may be onerous to some and vaguely irksome to others. It doesn't appear to be terrifically involved otherwise, so the first, most basic question - is it worth it - depends on whether you've got $120 or so to spare.
Now...
I'm leery of carrying a concealed firearm in a state where I am neither a resident nor possess a non-resident permit from that state. While you may very well be 100% legal, it's entirely possible that the nice officer with the gun to your head doesn't know that... Gun laws are so confusing, overlapping, and convoluted that under normal circumstances (carrying in your own state) you're likely to encounter difficulties. Having an out-of-state non-resident permit opens you up to unnecessary risks, IMHO. And while you may eventually walk away scot-free, it doesn't mean a whole helluva lot when you're proned out on the asphalt in 90ยบ heat...
This came up when I was grousing about the NH non-resident permit fee skyrocketing to $100 from the previously reasonable $20. It was suggested that the $117 FLA non-resident permit was a better value, as it was recognized in more states than the NH non-res. Since I'm in NH fairly often, I'd rather have the NH permit - if I get stopped in NH while carrying and I have to show a gun permit, I'd rather it be an official State of NH Non-Resident Firearms Permit than a FL non-resident. I don't want to run the risk of getting Skippy the taser-happy statie deciding that my permit may or may not be valid and playing whackamole with my testicles...
But that's just me...
The second question is, IMHO, a little easier. I applied to the University of New Hampshire while possessing a MA FID card, and at no point in the process was it ever mentioned. I don't know for certain if a college would be able to access that information - I certainly hope not - but it shouldn't matter to them whether you have a permit or not. Given that most states require concealed permit holders to be 21, I'd hazard that it's a metric most colleges don't bother to collect...
And if anyone has evidence or anecdotes to the contrary, we'd love to hear them!
That is all.
10 comments:
Some states have CCW-shield laws (as in, no one but police officers investigating a crime can query CCW status of an individual).
Others don't, occasionally giving rise newspapers publishing the entire CCW listing for the state in an attempt to...scare people?
I don't know whether Florida has a CCW-shield law.
Such a law should make it very hard for a college/grad-school to know about CCW holders. Even more challenging to the college/grad-school is that so few of their students care...the information, if available, would be "NO" more than 95% of the time.
The first thing he should do is move the heck out of New Jersey.
I would note that if an officer as squirrily as you state discovers/is informed (I suggest the latter if the interaction extends outside of your car) I'd say you're in for a tough day no matter what card is in your wallet.
Meanwhile if you get a level-headed officer who just isn't sure about the state's gun laws, the worst you'll likely encounter is to have your gun taken away and to be handcuffed and locked in the back the the cruiser while he calls in your permit(s).
Overall if you're cooperative and polite about the matter I suspect he won't feel the need to prone you, or bring out the taser.
Interesting situation. I knew when I got my restricted LTC A (Target and hunting only, no carry) that I could easily get a Maine and New Hampshire permit, as well as lawfully carry in Vermont (the 3 three states I'm most likely in if I'm not in Mass), but I personally declined to do that because I didn't want to start carrying only out of state (and on my property at home) until I was more comfortable with the ins and outs of conceal carry in my home state.
Good luck to your reader.
Also we should let him know that Florida panders to the snow-bird crowd, so if there is an address in-state that will vouch for you, you can easily get the much preferred RESIDENT permit.
I got my Resident permit a few months ago while visiting relatives in the Dick-Shaped state. The instructor saw me filling out the form as a non-resident and he stopped me and asked where I was staying while I was here. He said "Don't be foolish, put that address down and mark your home as the mailing address" My relative didn't even bat an eye when I asked, so I put it down.
well worth it!
As to question one, some permit is better than no permit. I'd say get a couple of non res permits.
FL sounds good. I think CT may issue you a nonres without having a NJ permit. If you are going to spend time in CT, may as well have their permit too.,
As an under 21 in NJ, I'm not sure how you'd get a handgun - you cannot buy one outside of your home state.
For the second part - I have never heard of a background check pulling that info. Some states do have shield laws, some states like ME have such a fragmented database that it is impossible to search. ME, for example, has no statewide list.
....and I've never heard of a NONRES list ever being published, but anyone is welcome to correct me there .
I dare say most Grad School admin. officers don't even KNOW CCW licenses exist. Facebook and MySpace pages are far more likely to be viewed by schools (and prospective employers) so see if any "gun stuff" is on yours.
Renewed my FL non-resident permit in June. Turn around was under 2 weeks. Between it and my VA resident permit I'm good to go in 30+ states.
"This came up when I was grousing about the NH non-resident permit fee skyrocketing to $100 from the previously reasonable $20. It was suggested that the $117 FLA non-resident permit was a better value, as it was recognized in more states than the NH non-res. Since I'm in NH fairly often, I'd rather have the NH permit - if I get stopped in NH while carrying and I have to show a gun permit, I'd rather it be an official State of NH Non-Resident Firearms Permit than a FL non-resident. I don't want to run the risk of getting Skippy the taser-happy statie deciding that my permit may or may not be valid and playing whackamole with my testicles..."
NH only honors RESIDENT permits for reciprocity purposes. Unless you game a resident FL permit as Weerd describes, you still need the NH permit.
However, PA honors NH non-resident permits, but I'm still planning to get a PA CHL if I want to carry there. It's easy and cheap insurance.
Imagine if driver's licenses were treated the same. But then that would be kind of unconstitutional, now, wouldn't it?
Speaking as a CT resident, who USED to live in NJ, first I'll say since you are out of NJ for school, make it permanent! Never go back to NJ except for very short visits! The problem with the FL permit is like was said, many states don't honor the non-resident permit. I've told Weerd before, I think he's skating on thin ice if he needs to show his FL resident permit along with his MA driver's license/registration. Not worth the risk IMNHO. Other states are the same way. Establish a residence in CT. Then join the CCDL (Connecticut Citizens Defense League www.ccdl.us) and come to a meeting and we will walk you thru the CT permit process. Once you get that you can get a non resident NJ FID card which won't let you carry in nj, but it will help CYA if you transport one back to NJ. Jay can give you my email if you need more info on CT or NJ.
As Karrde said, it can depend on the state's laws. Here in Virginia, a quick search for my name in the online court case information system will show that I have applied for a CHP. It doesn't specifically state that it was granted, but it's there, and the required information is something any college would have.
I assume this would vary from state to state, but it's something to keep in mind.
useful site for comparing CCWs and creating a map, consolidating all CCWs you hold - http://www.handgunlaw.us/LicMaps/ccwmap.php
Take a look at Utah CCW, btw - pretty much same reciprocity as Florida, and much cheaper.
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