Tuesday, June 15, 2010

Pistols are Pistols, and Rifles are Rifles...

The title is an oft-repeated phrase at the gunnie favorite "Box 'o' Truth" website. For those not familiar with the Box 'o' Truth, it's run by a gentleman in Texas who has his own range, a burning curiosity about ballistics, and far more fun than the average human. He's kind of a gunnie Mythbuster and tester of truisms, checking on such diverse topics as the penetration of .223 Remington, the power of the .357 Magnum, and whether or not the .30 Carbine is stopped by heavy clothing.

Usually the "pistols are pistols, and rifles are rifles" line comes after a succession of handgun rounds fail to adequately penetrate the medium of the day. A rifle round is used for comparison, and almost always performs as expected - cutting through like a hot knife through butter in most cases. The superiority of the rifle and rifle cartridges is graphically brought home in test after test, with the end result most often being that handguns are pale substitutes for long arms in stopping power, penetration, and all-around power.

This is not in dispute; even the largest and most outrageous of pistol calibers barely approach the power offered in the .30-30. What it comes down to, however, is portability - even in the most gun-friendly areas of the country, carrying a loaded rifle is generally frowned upon at best, illegal at worst. Even where legal, the practicality is a matter for debate - even the lightest and most portable of rifles require slings and such. For the vast majority of folks, carrying a handgun is simply easier - and therefore more likely to happen - than a rifle.

That's not to say that rifles don't have their place in the average gunnie arsenal. First and foremost, there's the hunting aspect - while many places have handgun hunting seasons and game that can be taken, rifle or shotgun hunting is far more common. The range afforded a rifle, combined with the stopping power for a humane kill, make the rifle a superior hunting arm for most applications. Secondly, a rifle, usually a carbine, or a shotgun set up in home defense configuration makes an excellent weapon with which to protect one's home. The extra power of the rifle, the larger capacity of a rifle magazine over a pistol, and the increased effectiveness make the rifle an excellent home defense weapon.

So we train with our handguns at "conversational distances" ranging from 5 yards to 25 yards (the "average" confrontation occurring at a distance of something like 21 feet). Training with a home defense arm should also happen around that same distance, with perhaps a carbine being tested out to the full 25 yards for a maximum distance for training. Beyond 25 yards, it gets harder and harder to argue self-defense as a reason for engaging, at least under most normal circumstances.

Why, then, do we insist on training with rifles at 100 yards or more?

Certainly, if one hunts it makes sense to practice at longer distances. Ditto if one enjoys participating in long range shooting competitions - it takes an amazing amount of skill and training to consistently achieve sub-minute-of-angle groupings at extreme ranges (>200 yards). Heck, it's a useful skill to have in general for a myriad reasons, one of the most pressing being that we are, at heart, a nation of riflemen, a spirit embodied by the Appleseed Project and the fine men and women that devote their time to creating better rifle shooters.

Personally, though, the value of using scarce range time to practice a skill I have little use for is questionable. I'd rather spend an hour on the pistol range improving my handgunning technique over shrinking my 150 yard groups. I don't begrudge anyone for training and practicing at long range, mind you; it's just that I view it as the least important part of my own personal firearms training. I train with my pistols first, my defensive shotgun second, defensive carbine third, and then long range at the tail end (so far, nothing). I arrange it according to my perceived need - in my own opinion, I'm far more likely to need to use a handgun competently than a 200 yard rifle. It's not to say that I think rifle skills are unimportant; just that they are less important than handgun skills.

What do you think - are skills with a handgun more important, less important, or equally important as long-distance skills with a rifle?

That is all.

28 comments:

Lissa said...

Judging by the fact that we have multiple handguns and zero rifles, we're going to come down on the handgun side :)

Also -- the increased penetration/power of a rifle is a serious downside when you live in an apartment building.

Jay G said...

Zero rifles?

That 10/22 is a mirage? :)

Ross said...

I'd much rather have my M1 Garand or my AR15 in my hands if I need to defend Casa Dwarven1 in the event of a Katrina SHTF scenario than, say, my .45, Jay.

You need both. But then, since you know I'm an Appleseed Instructor, you probably knew I'd say that. ;-)

Oh, and when are you coming to an Appleseed Shoot, BTW? You do know that your kids shoot for free, right? As does Mrs. G?

New Jovian Thunderbolt said...

pistol are for defense, rifles for offense, yes.

sometimes you may need to go on offense. Like in S-REALLY!-HTF situations.

But yes, it is more likely you will have a dozen mugging instances to defend against before you'd need to worry about going on offense. Devote resources to pistol. Just not ALL your resources.

Borepatch said...

The challenge of the rifle range is not driven by the practical, but a wonderful challenge it is nonetheless.

Comrade Misfit said...

I guess it sort of depends on how far south you think things may get.

Anonymous said...

pistol are for defense, rifles for offense, yes.

I have to respectfully disagree.

When a criminal uses a pistol to rob you, that's offense, not defense.

When you use your AR-15 or SKS to fend off a home invasion, that's defense, not offense.

The difference has nothing to do with the use to which the tool is put. That's up to the operator. The difference has to do strictly with portability, concealability and convenience.

Those three things make pistols more commonly used for both defense, AND offense in our society.

It is more practical to carry a defensive pistol everywhere you go, rather than a defensive rifle.

Just as it is more practical for a criminal to use an offensive pistol with which to carry out his crimes rather than an offensive rifle.

But either can be (and are) effectively used for both.

As far as long range/short range practice:

Obviously, if you are interested in hunting or long range competition, placing a relatively high priority on practicing will pay large dividends.

I would say that long range shooting is a skill that every gun owner should develop at least at a minimal level: hitting a man-sized target to ranges up to 300 yards.

The purpose of the Second Amendment, after all, is not ostensibly SELF defense, but defense of the nation. I think that as patriots and citizens we have a responsibility to have at least a minimal ability to fulfill that responsibility should the unthinkable occur and the need arise.

But, for the average "I carry guns for self defense" gun owner, obviously, the type of shooting that they are most likely encounter should garner most of their focus and range time.

In other words: a long way of saying that I agree with you that you should devote more practice time to the style of shooting you are most likely to have immediate need of, but with the caveat not to forget the true purpose of the Second Amendment, what "well regulated" really means, and our responsibilities as citizens and members of the unorganized militia.

Tango said...

Most of the time, I shoot because it's fun. Part of the time, I shoot because of necessity. ;)

Rifles = more fun.
Pistols = more necessity for me.

Eck! said...

I lean toward three.

The rifle is an excellent long range tool and being able to hit a small spot far away is skill.

Shotgun is the midrange specialist.

Handgun is for closer and the accuracy skills are complementary.

Being able to shoot all of those well is worthy goal.

Eck!

zeeke42 said...

For purely defensive purposes, pistol is more important than rifle. Rifle is a different challenge though, and the skills reinforce each other in some ways.

Also, don't neglect hand to hand training. I just spent this weekend in a multi-disciplinary 0-5 feet class. If the bad guy is within arms reach, good luck getting your gun in play without some training in that area.

Wally said...

Oh mama. Rifle is every bit as important, if not more so. It's a battle of precision which really causes you to deliberate every muscle movement. There is a zen required, trying to put your breath in time with the ever changing wind. Head position, trigger pressure, sling tension - any one would cause you to miss wildly.

Try it sometime. I guarantee the discipline will help with your pistolero skills too.

Train to the highest standard - it will pay dividends.


I am biased a bit, but I learned on rifles with iron sights. Scopes still seem foreign to me. Last time out I held black at 600 with my 20" AR and iron sights.

Lissa said...

Oh. Um. Right. 10/22.

Is it bad that I don't think of it as a rifle, but as a whole little "fun starter long gun" category by itself? :)

Jay G said...

It's not that I consider rifle shooting unimportant, just least important. There's a distinction there.

Part of it is my poor eyesight - I can't resolve a damn thing beyond ~ 100 yards or so. Heck, most iron sights obscure the whole damn target at that distance for me anyways.

If I'm using a scoped firearm, then it's a matter of getting it dialed in, then checking to make sure the zero hasn't moved. Since I don't plan on needing the rifle for long range shooting, I tend to view "good enough" as enough...

But that's just me.

As long as I can hit a tin can at 50 yards with the Bushmaster and the 4X scope, I'm a happy man. More precise work really isn't in the cards at this time...

Rob Robideau said...

Pistols are as important because they are what you have on you most of the time. Long range is important also as you want to be prepared for every contingency.

Concerning why more people don't think of and practice with rifles as primary self-defense weapons:

Ammo cost vs. pistol cartridges?

Size or maneuverability in a home or vehicle?(SBRs are awesome!)

Speaking of box-o-truth, I interviewed him on my podcast that released today.

Veeshir said...

I just like making things go BOOM!

I don't just have guns for defense, I have them because, to quote a guy, I like guns, not because I think the Russkis are going to invade.

Although if the Russkis invade, I'll be ready.
Wolverines!

Roadkill said...

I certainly think that you should be as good as you can be with what you carry. After all, which do the odds favor you having on your person when you need it to be there? I'm not saying that the rifle is less important, but rather the pistol is more important to have as much skill as possible with. However, long arms are also easier to get good with. The rifle's advantages of stock, optics choices, accuracy, power, and sight radius should mean you can get away with a bit less on the rifle training and still be useful and effective. Pistols are the inverse, you must train more with a pistol. This is really an apples and oranges comparison anyway.

Dixie said...

Pistols are for close-in defense, rifles are for you need to reach out and touch someone. I have a carbine for defense because my home is set in the open, and it's possible I might have to go from getting someone out of my house to keeping him out.

sobriant74 said...

When at home I keep my "hand cannon" nearby; a Rem 870 12G. When out and about I have my CC pistol and if the SHTF and I am up on my roof (Assuming the roof is still there after the tornado)watching for looters, I'll have my .308 rifle with scope. Each serves its purpose. Which do I spend the most time with at the range? My concealed carry wins hands down.

Jay G said...

I think that's the distinction. I'm "good enough" with a rifle - like I said, I'm minute-of-tin can with my Bushmaster at 50 yards. If I can hit a soda can that far out, I can hit a melon.

Realistically - taking zombie outbreaks and CWII out of the equation - 50 yards is the furthest I'd have have to make a shot. That's someone parked on the street outside my neighbor's house shooting in, frex, and I stand a pretty good chance of taking the dude out.

Beyond 50 yards, though, it's awfully hard to think of a self-defense scenario where that would be applicable. I live in the 'burbs - I'm not likely to see The Humungus drive up in his war wagon until he's right on top of me...

Anonymous said...

Interesting.
I grew up hunting with rifles and shotguns. Hunting was part of my youth and still is.
My first handguns were .22s Ruger SA and Mark II.
I know where my rifles will hit and can from up close and personal to "reach out and touch someone".
Guess if I had to choose it may be my trusty lever gun, Marlin 336C.

But I am never without my "carry" weapon.
And often carry my GP100 in the field.
But my rifle(s)? I have utmost faith in it and my abilities to use it.
Of course concealed carry with it is a bitch!!
Thats why I have Mr. Kahr!!

Anonymous said...

Interesting.
I grew up hunting with rifles and shotguns. Hunting was part of my youth and still is.
My first handguns were .22s Ruger SA and Mark II.
I know where my rifles will hit and can from up close and personal to "reach out and touch someone".
Guess if I had to choose it may be my trusty lever gun, Marlin 336C.

But I am never without my "carry" weapon.
And often carry my GP100 in the field.
But my rifle(s)? I have utmost faith in it and my abilities to use it.
Of course concealed carry with it is a bitch!!
Thats why I have Mr. Kahr!!

Dixie said...

Realistically - taking zombie outbreaks and CWII out of the equation - 50 yards is the furthest I'd have have to make a shot.

That's one reason it sucks to be out in the country. The nearest treeline to my house is around 100 yards, and that's to the brush, not actual trees.

Anonymous said...

Treeline?

I grew up in Central Indiana, we didn't have "treelines", we had corn fields.

Except during the few months of the year when the corn was tall enough to hide in, about the only thing in Central Indiana limiting the distance of shot you could take was your eyesight and the curvature of the earth.

Pop N Fresh said...

I use my bolt for the old reach out and touch idea, probably 75% of my shorty fal and ar practice is between 3 and 50 yards as these would be the most useful in most scenarios. That being said the other 25% can meander all the way out to 400 yards.

Ritchie said...

100 yards with a rifle is long enough to be revealing and instructive, and short enough to exist as a stand-in for 200-300+. In the Denver Colorado area, I know of 1, maybe 2 ranges that stretch 600 yards. Most of the Front Range and nearby National Forest is closed to recreational shooting, and finding a few hundred yards that doesn't involve an exhausting walk at altitude is as rare as the air.

Jon said...

What Borepatch said. There's something wildly gratifying about being able to shoot tight groups at 400 yards, especially when you know it isn't an easy thing to do.

And if I can hit far out, I can hit all the closer distances too.

Anonymous said...

"are skills with a handgun more important, less important, or equally important as long-distance skills with a rifle?"

I would say it all depends what your goals are.

Looking at your own posting, it's evident you're more self-defense oriented, and thus towards your gunnie goal there, you gear your skills and practice time accordingly.

I would say someone that spends their day as a sniper (military, SWAT, etc.), long distance skill with a rifle is more important.

To someone that likes to hunt big game in mountainous regions, being able to hit things out to 600 yards may be important. Hunting here in Central Texas, 200 yards is probably the most you'd ever do.

It all depends on what YOU need.

Farm.Dad said...

Jay . The skills you need and the tools to use are situationally dependent . You like most americans live in an urban environment and political climate where 25 yards is a hell of a long shot. I say that both practically and from a justifiable shoot standpoint. Yes its neat to be able to brag about your 1k yard rifle skills , or your 50-200 yard handgun skills, however the bulk of your training needs to be in-line with the realistic chances of needing to use the skills . Any more i can shoot a rifle at 1/4 mile plus better than most, a handgun out past 50 yards better than most , but my " bad breath range" hand gunning has slowed down from what it once was . I simply no longer train for the quick and dirty enough . My lifestyle and where i live simply has dictated precision over speed because i might well be shooting 700 yards at a yote that busted out of my calving heffers . However the " Yout" as the brits say dont justify shooting at that range . Ill say put 70% of your practice into the longest range possible inside your house ( that after all is the " money shot ) , and 20% more under 50 yards . the last 10% is reserved for the long range stuff that allows you to hold your head up among other gunnys who shoot for fun .