I'd like to get a flattop upper with a rifle-length barrel, perhaps something with a chrome bull barrel for long distance shooting. I'd like something that I could use out to 200 - 300 yards or so with decent glass and maybe a bipod; a true rifleman's rifle. The Bushmaster is a great close-quarters carbine; the short length is maneuverable and the rifle is quite light. It would be great to have similar rifles on the same platform with different functions - sharing magazines alone will save me quite a bit of money up front.
So why a second AR and not just a new upper? Well, for starters, the whole "two is one" concept - if the lower breaks or is otherwise put out of commission, having an extra upper or two is meaningless. Secondly, the upper is the expensive part of the rifle - complete uppers are selling for $500 up to, well, how much you want to spend? I've seen a couple complete 20" barrel rifles for $700 - $850; I don't see the point in buying a 20" barrel flattop upper for $600 when I can get a complete rifle for a couple hundred bucks more.
Here's where it gets difficult, though. While I'm learning more and more about the AR-15 platform, I'm still a stoopid noob for the most part. What should I be looking for in a "reach out and touch someone" AR (and yes, I know, for a true "reach out and touch someone" rifle I should be looking at an AR-10 in G-d's Own Caliber...). I know nothing about barrels, twist rates, or other critical factors like that - I know that I like the looks of the chrome bull barrels, but not if they're especially useful for what I want to do.
The basic criteria are that it be rifle length, have a flattop upper, and be MA compliant (or easily convertible to MA compliant). Beyond that, it's a blank canvas - I'm not beholden to any one manufacturer out there; I'd be happy to look at Smith & Wesson, Stag, Armalite, Olympic Arms, or any other make of AR that meets the above three criteria. Using standard AR-15 parts is a must - I've got plenty of extras from my learning curve with the Bushie, so sharing small parts and such is a definite.
What should I be looking to get for my second AR-15?
That is all.
23 comments:
DPMS LR-308. It is the best, most accurate rifle that I own (and I have some serious LR riflage). I permamounted a Leupold 3-9x on it and como painted it. Awesomeness.
OOH OOH!!! I KNOW I KNOW!!!!
*grumbles*
A lot depends on ammo.
I don’t think you reload at present.
If you want to hit small targets (say standard clay) out past 300y you need good ammo. The bulk eastern / mill surplus stuff is on the whole not up to the performance you need. Past 600y you will be best off with the high weight stuff in a 1-7 barrel. From a store this stuff is very very NOT cheap.
If you are more interested in 250 -400 y there is a wider range of low and mid weight competition and varmit factory ammo. This stuff will work well in a 1-10 barrel, the low weight varmit may well not work well if at all in a 1-7. This stuff is just not cheap.
So as always you need to make your own choices.
p.s. All of this would be a lot cheaper if you were a hand loader. $250 would by the kit to make relatively small volumes of descent to good high precision mid/heavy ammo to use in a 1-7. You could still use mil surplus when you want to shoot at short range of fast for fun. But you would need some time and patience for ammo production.
p.p.s
Think about a parts kit. The way tax works you can save lots of cash and get just what you want.
Tim
Goddamn blogger just ate my comment.
2-300 yards is still carbine range, son! (Well, it is!)
If you're set on .223/5.56 chambering, here's what I'd be looking for:
- 20" barrel
- 1/8 twist (1/8 will comfortably handle 50gr up to about 70gr bullets, 1/9 tops out around 60gr, and 1/7 75+, which is match-weight)
- A4 upper (flattop with M4 feed cuts)
- 5.56 or .223 Wylde chamber (Wylde especially)
- free float tube/handguards
- A2 or Magpul PRS stock
Optics - Aimpoints rule this one, but since I doubt you want to drop that kind of ching, look at the new Nikon AR series. I wouldn't go higher than 3-9x, personally.
Do you mean you want a stainless barrel or a chrome-lined barrel? My AR is a stainless bull barrel, and it is a heavy sumbitch. Chrome lined you can't see 'til you're looking down the bore.
Brands - lots of fanboy to filter through, but I'd look at Stag, Rock River, or DPMS, in that order. Avoid Model 1 at all costs - they have quality issues, but more importantly, they have credit card security issues.
And, in all honesty - why not buy a stripped lower and parts kit, and assember your own? It takes an hour if you work slow, and saves you the 11% whack to the .gov...
If you're really looking for something accurate, something close to National Match configuration is your best bet.
I built mine and it's good for somewhere around .75moa from a mechanical rest with the right ammo.
At the Atlantic Fleet matches last spring, from the prone position using a sling for support and Iron Sights, I put 15 out of 20 shots into 12 inches from 500 yards.
And I'm not even one of the good shooters.
As far as twist rates, it depends on what you're going to be shooting.
The heavier (longer) bullets tend to shoot flatter and are less susceptible to winds. I use Sierra Match King 77 Grain HPBT for my match rifle.
The heavy bullets need a faster rate of twist to stabilize.
The very light, fast bullets, however will come apart in flight due to their low mass and centrifugal force if they are twisted too fast.
The current standard for barrels intended for the civilian market is 1:9. That twist rate will work, but is really only effective for bullets up to about 65 grains. My personal recommendation is 1:8. That's good for anything from 55 grains up to about 80 grains. The only disadvantage is that you can't use the really light, fast bullets that are out there, but I'm not interested in them at all.
1:7 would give you even better stability for the heavier bullets, but would also increase the minimum to the point where 55 grain (the most common size of cheap, plinking ammo around) might be problematic.
So...if you intend to use bullets lighter than 55 grains and don't plan to use anything heavier than about 65 grains, a 1:9 barrel should be your choice. From 55 to about 80 grains 1:8 and if you want the best accuracy from the heaviest bullets and don't care about using 55 grain plinking ammo, 1:7 is your choice.
Another consideration is the chamber dimensions. Rifles chambered in .223 Remington tend to be more accurate than those chambered in 5.56 NATO because of the reduced leade (distance between the bullet when chambered and the beginning of the rifling.
However, 5.56 ammo shouldn't be used in a .223 chambered rifle because the reduced leade causes increased pressures. 5.56 NATO ammo is loaded to higher pressures than .223 and can cause rather dramatic problems in a .223 chambered rifle.
a 5.56 chamber will fire either caliber, but is not as accurate when using match ammo loaded to SAAMI .223 specs.
A good compromise is the .223 Wylde chamber. It's basically a .223 chamber with the leade lengthened to the point that it can handle 5.56 NATO ammo. It will be slightly more accurate then a 5.56 chambered rifle, but slightly less accurate than a .223.
My match rifle has a .223 chamber but I would have gone with a Wylde had I been able to find one within the time constraints I had. Everyone that makes them was back-ordered at the time.
Of course, there's more to a really accurate rifle than just the barrel. You should get a good, match grade, one or two stage trigger. I have a Jewell on my match rifle, which I love, but it has a reputation for being a bit fragile. You may want to go with something a bit more robust for an everyday shooter. Probably the best on the market right now is Geissele, but you'll pay for it...about $275. Rock River Arms makes a very reputable two stage match trigger for a reasonable price, but theirs is not adjustable, which is unacceptable to me.
There are plenty more choices out there. It depends on your budget, whether you prefer single or two stage (I prefer two stage, but specifically because of match rules) and whether you want something adjustable or if a fixed pull is good enough for you.
Also, your barrel should be free-floated. On a standard barrel the front of the handguards are mounted to the barrel and the front sling swivel is on the bottom of the front sight base (which is mounted to the barrel). Using the sling correctly, and even putting your hand on the handguard, puts pressure on the barrel and can cause it to flex slightly or can alter the harmonics when firing.
A free float tube mounts to the front of the receiver but does not touch the barrel at any point forward of the receiver. The handguards (or rails) are mounted to the tube. The sling swivel is on the front of the tube rather than the front sight. This means that nothing is contacting the barrel and you can use the sling properly, hold the grips, add accessories or optics to the rails, etc without causing the barrel to flex or changing the harmonics.
There are a few more minor things, like the upper to lower receiver fitment, counterweights in the stock to correct the center of gravity due to the heavy barrel, match sights if you're not using optics, things like that, but the barrel, free-float tube and trigger are the primary factors that affect accuracy.
As far as manufacturers, Rock River arms makes a fine, affordable match grade rifle, but they are usually 6 to 8 months behind on orders. DPMS makes reasonably good stuff, but not necessarily top of the line. Bushmaster makes several versions of match or "varminter" rifles that have really good reputations. Armalite is an option, but they're pricey. Pretty much any of the big name suppliers have offerings that are valid options.
There are plenty of custom shops that will build to your specs, but I couldn't speak to any of them as far as quality or service...when I want a custom AR-15, I build it myself...which is another option that guarantees that you'll get exactly what you want.
I've rambled on long enough. Hope some of that helped.
Jay, Having a little experience with Long Range AR plinking I will chime inn . I wont do a " hard " recommendation on brand , rather i will speak to features you will likely want, and link a page to use more or less as a " shopping list " .
You will want a Full Flattop rifle ,fixed a1 or a2 (depending on your reach) stock, free float handguard, match trigger, and match grade heavy(er) barrel. The barrel is where it starts getting interesting . Lets get twist rate out of the road right off the bat . You want 1:8 twist 20" for a lr AR . Your going to find that a fast twist with heavy bullets performs a whole lot better than any other combo at range . How heavy a barrel? Well that will depend on how many rounds you will be shooting downrange in a session . After you reach an acceptable level of stiffness more meat on the barrel just acts as a heatsink and adds weight . For long bench sessions both are somewhat desirable. For carting the rifle around , and other than bench shooting not so much so .
Now Ill link you to a couple of RRA rifles to compare , the first is a " full out " prairie dog plinker that you might set up the porta bench and put 5-600 rounds through in a day with shooting strings running as much as half to 2/3 a magazine at a time .
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=228
The second is a rifle that wouldn't quite do as well on the long strings of fire , but would be a bit nicer to pack around , or shoot off hand if the want/need arose .
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=229
Look at the similaritys and the differences between the two, either would be a fine rifle .
One reason i used RRA as an example is that i do like their chamber , The " Wylde " chamber will handle both .223 and 5.56 rounds safely, and accurately .
As stated at top , this isn't a hard recommendation for any brand, rather its a look at the features i think you will want in a lr ar platform rifle basically on one page .
And sorry that I duplicated some previous commenter's info. They must have posted while I was typing.
20" is fine.
I would suggest against chrome. Chrome will hinder accuracy a bit, but it is good if you are going to beat the ever loving snot out of a barrel. A regular Chrome Moly 41x0 steel is fine for your needs. Stainless 41x would also be fine.
I'd suggest 1/9 twist as that will handle 40 grain up to 72gr, maybe even 75gr. Fine through 300-400 yards. 1/8 is borderline and can work for you. 1/7 is a bit too fast to be practical at 200-300 yards. Not that 1/7 is bad, but for your needs (esp as a NON-reloader) 1/9 would be my pick.
The only real upgrade that I'd suggest would be a freefloat handguard. Doesn't need to be a rail farm, you can get a standard round handguard floated.
Flat top with a removable carry handle is the norm these days. It isn't hard to fit finer match iron sights (yes I am stuck in the stone age thank you very much) but that's not critical at 200/300.
Iron sights work well on bullseye targets but they can be lacking for plinking (clays, etc) and that would be the area that a scope would come into play - I can't give much good input on that one.
Just my 2c here but I run a 20" 1/9 in the matches and last time out kept everything in the black at 600 yards.
And IMO, you will be dissapointed with most off the shelf ammo at 300yards.
I've always wondered how much difference there'd be between a $100 stripped lower and a $200 stripped lower. Will you really see a huge difference in quality/performance between the cheapo and pricey lowers?
I used to not like ARs, but they seem to be growing on me, especially with the Lego-aspect of them. I've been thinking about starting to collect the bits for one...
I do have to agree with Breda, though, that sproing is annoying.
I've always wondered how much difference there'd be between a $100 stripped lower and a $200 stripped lower. Will you really see a huge difference in quality/performance between the cheapo and pricey lowers?
Difference is usually in the fine details of surface finishing, debur/edges, rollmarks, etc. No functional difference.
I would caution that billet receivers (typ more expensive anyway) are a touch weaker, but the difference would be insignificant for any use it is likely to see.
BTW: Jay if you are soliciting brands, check out bravo company.
Jay,
I think you are not giving the AR platform enough credit. At the Appleseed I used my friend's AR15 to shoot the 500-yard. Mine had a bipod and scoped so I didn't think that would be "fair" to the point of the event. He has a 20" A2 1/9 and I shot 500 yards with iron sight, using of all things 55gr Wolf steel.
I can't give you help on the whole twist thing, etc because I keep hearing conflicts. I'm told that a 1/7 will shoot pretty much everything but that goes against the other posters here and I'm certainly no expert.
As for shooting them, I'm no expert on that either but I can tell you what I have done or what worked for me.
Incidentally, because of Appleseed, I took the scope off and went back to my BUIS and Aimpoint, co-witnessed.
Lol.. I like the sproinggg... That's what makes all of us so awesome. So many differences of opinion....
Patrick,
It's not the AR that I don't give enough credit, it's the range. There's one 600 yard range that I am aware of in the immediate vicinity, and it's a "member's only" club from what I hear.
I can get up to 300 yards relatively close to me (45 minutes or less). Hence the max range.
There's a lot of "contradiction" in the twist thing because every gun, and even every load, is different.
When we differentiate the characteristics of the different twist barrels, we're speaking in generalities.
And, of course, for every generality offered, there will be someone who claims that they shot a 45 grain bullet at 4,000 fps through a 1:7 twist barrel and made groups that you could cover with a quarter at 500 yards.
That's not "contradictory", that's (probably) BS.
The generalities given (with the exception of the poster who called a 1:8 twist barrel "borderline"...I don't even know what he meant by that...borderline what?) by each of the commenters are pretty much in the ballpark of my experience so any of them are good enough to get you in the right general area.
In general, the lighter the bullets you plan to use, the slower the twist rate you need. Heavier bullets = faster twist rate.
Heavier bullets are better for longer ranges because they have a higher BC and, therefore, shoot flatter and are less prone to wind deflection.
Lighter bullets are just fine for shorter ranges and can be pushed to higher velocities.
Just like anything else, it's all a matter of what you want to use it for. If you're looking for a long range tack driver (500 - 1,000 yards), you need a higher twist rate that will stabilize heavier bullets.
For your stated purpose of 200 to 300 yards, you'd be fine with bullets of less than 65 grains and would probably be perfectly happy with a 1:9 twist barrel.
For my purposes, I'm happy with a 1:8 twist. I can use 55 grain practice ammo with it to save money most of the time, but for actual matches and for practicing under match conditions, I can use the 77 grainers that I prefer for the longer distances.
One more thing: I second the motion about chrome lined barrels.
The Chrome lining extends the life of the barrel but decreases accuracy. Stainless steel is pretty much standard for high accuracy barrels...not because they're more accurate than unlined Chrome-Moly, but because they last longer. But, there's a downside: Stainless tends to be a bit more expensive and is heavier than chrome-moly; so, again, it's mainly a matter of preference.
with the exception of the poster who called a 1:8 twist barrel "borderline"...I don't even know what he meant by that...borderline what?)
Borderline worth the effort. A 1/9 will do fine and will handle 40-72gr bullets, maybe a little heavier. 1/9s are pretty easy to find and usually cheaper than the 1/8s.
I would recommend 1/8 for 55-75, even 80 gr. But 40gr bullets in a 1/8 can be trouble.
My pet handload 40gr shot about 0.6MOA in my 1/9. Tried that same ammo in dad's 1/8 and bullets were vaporizing at 50 yards. The extra rotational speed was too much for the jackets and they poofed midrange.
I have nothing against 1/8s. If you are building a match gun for 4-600, 1/8 is the way to go. My opinion was only directed to jay's request of a 200-300 yard gun.
And BTW, Jay, if you want to get to your local 600yd let me know, I know a few members there. And it isn't much longer of a ride to make it up to my range, 600 yards, no waiting.
Um, if your just going out to 300 yds. you don't need anything other than what you have. Split the price of a new rifle on ammo and a good red dot or scope and practice, practice, practice.
Of course another AR makes lots of sense to all of us. I can't improve on what's been posted.
I'll second most of what Curt said, except that Rock River Arms is currently running about 30 days on AR15 rifles and uppers. My project AR sounds pretty close what Jay is looking for. It's mostly RRA parts on a Stag lower, and when it's done it will be pretty close to one of these: Rock River Arms National Match
With some shopping around for stuff, I should save at least a couple hundred bux over the cost of the complete rifle.
OK! so it exceeds your spec's in just about every possible way! But if you want a "Long Range" AR build
http://www.onlylongrange.com/badnews.asp
26" 1-10 twist
A question about the SS vs CM what about the nitro-carburized process. (Glock's tenifer?)
From what I have been able to learn from the internet (may God have mercy on my soul for trusting the internet) the process keeps the accuracy of the non chromed bore with a durability of SS.
Thanks for clarifying, Wally, I wasn't trying to be critical, I just didn't understand what you meant.
I admit that my experience with Rock River Arms' backlog is a bit dated. I presume they've done some catching up and aren't so far behind any more.
If so, their match-grade rifles are a fine offering. RRA is probably the most common manufacturer of rifles I've seen on the Navy Marksmanship Team (full disclosure: it helps that they offer a discount to team members) and I've seldom heard complaints about quality or customer service.
I have one of the RRA National Match A4's. I have it set up with a removable carry handle with match sight and an Armalite (EX0027) scope mount with a Sightron SII 6-24x42 mil-dot reticle. The scope mount remounts with less than 1/2 MOA change in alignment from my experience.
The rifle shot better than 1/2 MOA with Hornady 75 gr HPBT match factory loads straight out of the box and I find RRA's two-stage match trigger to be excellent.
love my noveske recce 20" barrel, it's 1 in 7 and groups great at 200 yards (can cover em with a quarter quite often). That twist loves hand rolled 75 and 77 gr; a geissele trigger is awesome I am now a member of their cult..........
Post a Comment