Now...I'm looking to make a 1911-specific holster. Not sure if I'm going to go the route of exotic skins or not yet, but what I need to know is your opinions (along with the opinions of your readers, if you're so inclined) on if a 1911 specific holster must have a thumb break, so as to allow the gun to be carried in Condition 1. (My understanding is that DefCon 1 is cocked, safety locked, live round in the pipe...feel free to correct me if I have it backwards...)Let's see... Why don't we start with a review of the common "conditions" in which a semi-automatic handgun can be carried?
Personally, I don't carry with one in the pipe if the gun is SA only. On the sidearms I have that are DA/SA, I will chamber a round, then drop the hammer and keep the safety on.
So there's the question for you guys...I'm fleshing out a design that is a hybrid of the Flatjack and the Snakebite, made only for the 1911, and the thumbbreak question is one that I need to resolve.
Condition 0: Round in the chamber, hammer cocked, safety off.
Condition 1: Round in the chamber, hammer cocked, safety on.
Condition 2: Round in the chamber, hammer down. DAO firearms like the Glock cannot be carried in this condition.
Condition 3: Chamber empty, full magazine, hammer down. Sometimes called Israeli carry.
Condition 4: Chamber empty, magazine removed, slide back and locked.
And I'll add in my $0.02: carrying in Condition 3 is a horrendous idea. Most encounters in which a concealed firearm might need to be employed happen at close distance ("bad breath" distance), and the odds of you being able to draw your pistol from concealment, chamber a round, and bring the gun to bear on your assailant are very slim. It's an unnecessary step that's completely unneeded with modern semi-automatic firearms - it's a holdover from the days where carrying in Condition 2 could result in a discharge if the gun were dropped. If you are uncomfortable with carrying a 1911-style handgun in Condition 1, then carry a different handgun.
A modern 1911 has three separate safety mechanisms for Condition 1. The grip safety requires the gun to be held properly to engage; the thumb safety prevents the hammer from falling; and the transfer bar actuated by the trigger prevents discharging due to physical action against the pistol such as dropping onto a hard surface. Carrying a 1911 with the thumb safety engaged is perfectly safe - and make sure to train to disengage the safety as part of the draw. Personally, I think it's a psychological issue - the sight of the cocked hammer instinctively makes us think that the gun is ready to fire.
As to the thumbbreak question, my personal feeling is that it's unnecessary in a quality holster such as those available from Dragon Leatherworks that are custom-fitted to the firearm to be carried therein. They add an additional action to the draw of the firearm, yet another step to go through when you need your concealed firearm the fastest. Out of all the holsters that I have and use on a regular basis, exactly none of them have a retention strap - 1911s and revolvers included. If you're including it for safety (i.e. the strap is going to to across the back of the slide and act as a physical barrier to the hammer hitting the firing pin), refer to above - you've already got three safeties to prevent this; do you really need a fourth?
So, good readers, what say you - thumbbreak or no? And, since we're on the matter anyways, what condition do you carry your firearm in?
That is all.
28 comments:
I have two holsters for my 1911. One is a "yaqui slide" style, which I use when shooting IDPA, and the other is a Galco "Fletch", which has a strap.
The one with the strap gets used when I'm in the woods and moving around in odd ways; thus more likely to lose or snag the gun.
If I were carrying a 1911, a good form-fitted holster of whatever style, ideally with an adjustable tension screw, would be sufficient to my needs.
As to condition of carry... when I carried the 1911, it was -1. My Bersa was carried -2; the first pull would be long and hard and then SA from there. The 642, being DAO, was carried with a full cylinder. And now, with the PM9 - a striker-fired DAO - it's condition Z.
That's right, Z. There is no safety beyond the one between my ears. There's a round in the chamber, a full mag, and no way to de-cock the striker. Point. Click. Boom. (My S&W 5946 and 4053 are carried the same, although they are hammer-fired DAOs.)
I carried the 1911 in -3 for a while when I first got it, until I had spent some more time with it and trusted it, and more importantly, trusted myself, to carry it -1.
The gun should be carried in the manner in which it was designed.
1911 was designed to be safe to carry with one in the chamber and the safety on. I personally put one through the gas tank of my bike in this condition and it did not just go off so any argument that they are not reliable enough to carry this way is moot INMSHO.
DA/SA guns are usually designed to be carried one in the chamber and decocked. Makes for the odd first trigger pull with SA for all the follow up shots. Designed for liability / public perception only.
Striker fired guns are designed to be carried chamber loaded and gun cocked. Some have external safeties to be engaged and some don't.
Back to the beginning, the gun should be carried as it was designed. The users preference for how a gun appears to be safe should not override how the gun was designed to be operated safely.
The rest is all perception. Perception of safe for the carrier and perception of safe for the observer. When people got used to either a flap covering the gun or a thumb break added to the gun being a revolver with the hammer down, that was perceived to be safe. When the switch to semi auto was made, people perceived that carrying with the hammer back was not safe. This was out of misinformation or lack of good information based on years of seeing revolvers carried with the hammer down. Not based on the design or an understanding of mechanics.
As always, free advice is worth what you paid for it. YMMV.
I carry my 1911 in condition 1. When I carry my XD it is with 1 in the chamber. The XD makes me more nervous because it is in the same state at the 1911 but there are no safeties external to the grip. I do not think the glock style trigger is a replacement for the thumb safety on an SA pistol.
As for the Thumbbreak. I designed my carry rig myself. It is a mash up of several IWB hybrid (kydex & leather) designs. It's retention is friction only. With the 1911 I think a thumb break strap is a risk due to the fact that it is either going to ride between the hammer and the firing pin where it can easily get snagged, over the grip safety which risks engaging the safety mechanism, or disallows carrying in condition 1 which as Jay and ZerCool stated is how the 1911 is meant to be carried.
Since TX is CC only I have not thought about open carry retention which I feel needs more than just friction to help with the increased grab risk.
My 2 cents for what it is worth.
I carry my 1911s condition 1, it’s the only way to carry it. As for holsters there are numerous companies making quality holsters for the 1911 pattern. Any well made modern holster fitted for the gun (not the generic one size fits all type) will hold it in place without a strap. Personally I have several holsters for my 1911 but the one that gets the most use is a Brommeland IWB which doesn’t have (or need) a strap and still holds onto the gun like glue. Carrying a 1911 in anything but condition 1 or with a retaining strap is more about the users psychological comfort and not the actual safety of the gun.
I carry my 1911 in condition 1, and I don't use holsters with thumb straps.
My must have features:
Strap over hammer strike point.
Quiet snap to release that strap.
Leather comfort plate between my skin and the cocked hammer.
Make it so it can be used regardless of barrel or grip length.
I carry a 1911 in condition 1, but generally, I don't carry it with a thumb-break, although the outside-the-waistband holster I quite like has one.
If the retention on the holster is good, then I don't think it's needed. (But, for an open carry holster, I can see some arguments in it's favor. "Less scary looking" being high up the list.)
Hmm. I don't often carry my 1911s, but when I do, more often than not they're in a belt slide type holster - no thumb strap.
When I belt carry my Model 19 and my K9, their holsters have no strap. In fact, the Kahr holster for the K9 comes with a strap... and I ignore it in favor of the UBG Canute, which has none.
I'd say go strapless.
WV: crove. (past tense of crave) I crove a Springfield XD until I realized it had the same stupid trigger as a Glock.
I carry a Glock, which means somewhere between conditions 1 and 2.
FYI, DAO firearms can ONLY be carried in conditions 2+, (as the hammer will be down even if a round is chambered).
Yes on the thumbbreak.
Not for added safety on the weapon, but because I like active retention.
I hike, ride my bike, wrestle the dog, chase kids, and something holding my sidearm beyond friction makes me feel better.
Active retention also allows for open carry.
I would really like it if someone smarter than me were to make a list of weapons/types and the pros/cons/dangers to carrying in these DefCons.
If your gun doesn't have a safety, then _this_ applies. If you carry like this, then _this_ might be your result. Shoulds and should nots.
I think that this could make a great guide for making decisions about how to carry.
The holster should be well boned to the 1911 and retain it through friction - and not rely on a thumbstrap.
It's not like Dragon is making uncle-mike's style one size fits some that relys on the strap for retention.
I havent carried a 1911 for years, but when I did it was IWB, no strap, condition 1. I moved on to DA/SA, then to striker fired - but remained IWB and strapless !
I don't have a 1911 (yet - it's on my wishlist), but my preference would be Condition 1, no strap for concealed carry. But I would go with Condition 1 with a thumb-break strap for open carry, to provide protection from gun-grabs or accidental snags.
It's also worth noting that the 1911, especially older models, is not safe to carry in Condition 2 - the hammer rests on or just above the firing pin and force on the hammer (like being dropped on it, or something striking it) can cause the firing pin to strike the primer with enough force to fire the round. Some newer models have added a firing pin block that may correct this, but it's still not recommended. It's designed to be carried safely in Condition 1, and that's how it should be carried.
I carry a DA/SA 9mm decocker only. One in the chamber, decocked hammer (at half-cock notch), no external safety. I carry it IWB in a molded Crossbreed Supertuck (leather/kydex). The holster keeps it perfectly snug to my hip without straps, even during impromptu volleyball games.
Ok...so from the responses it looks like:
TXGunGeek, Lupis, Violent, and Feelgood didn't have a thumb break opinion, Zercool, Teke175 and Jake feel it depends on the carry method (IWB or OWB) so I split the vote in half for those, and the rest had solid opinions for or against, and my tally shows 6.5 for, 3.5 against.
Hmmmm...prolly safest, from a biz perspective, to offer a strap as an option for those who want it.
Many thanks to those who conributed opinions!
Regards,
Dragon
Cocked and locked and no thumb break needed if the holster has proper retention.
Just realized that my tally should have been explained, and I'll update for JP's comment...
It's now 7.5 for *strapless* and 3.5 *against* going strapless.
I personally like the look of strapless. :-)
Late to the party as usual, but here goes. My daily carry guns, save 1, are strapless. My Taurus 605, when carried OWB, gets strapped in. Other than that, my holsters provide enough tension to securely hold my guns. My "woods holsters" have straps, because the odds of a fall or snag pulling my gun go up dramatically.
As to carry condition, 1911s were designed to be carried Condition 1, and who am I to argue with Mr. Browning? The 1006 gets carried Condition 2, with the safety off, and the XDM lives in Condition Z (I like that.)
Dragon: Put me down as a vote for strapless for IWB.
For my Walther P99c AS .40 I see two possibilities:
Condition 0/1: Round in the chamber, cocked, safety off as it doesn't exist.
Condition 2: Round in the chamber, decocked.
0/1 is a light trigger, 2 is a long pull - DA.
I'm thinking 2 makes sense.
But I'm WV:nonsure about this. (Bonus point for working the WV into my sentence.)
VI,
FWIW, That's exactly how I carried my S&W SW99 9mm compact when I had it...
(It was replaced by a Glock G30 on the basis of 10+1 rounds of .45 ACP beating 10+1 rounds of 9mm, once again FWIW)
"That's exactly how I carried"
#2, I assume.
I can see this as a How-to-carry Wiki.
You look up your model of gun and read a page about the options and read personal experiences.
I've got the new Bangmaster T&A Deluxe chambered in .85 - look it up in the Wiki. Says here that it can be carried cocked with two in the chamber, quad stack full. It doesn't have a safety. Sounds right - but wait - someone with personal experience says that the the trigger in single action is a 1-gram pull. Perhaps I should carry it NOT cocked...
Condition One, no thumb-break. Though if it makes you more comfortable, by all means use one. As long as your practice includes breaking it as you draw.
One thing I did when fitting a holster: cut a piece of wood just a fraction taller/wider than the front sight and taped it to the slide from behind front sight to rear sight; that way when I boned it(especially after waxing) it created a sight channel.
Firehand...thanks for the tip, but my FlatJack and SnakeBite models don't need a sight channel, as the construction and subsequent boning eliminates the need to allow for the front sight bead. :-)
You can see my offerings at www.dragonleatherworks.com
From my Experience in Security and Law Enforcement (Over glorified turnkey) All of my holster have a thumb strap. Not for safe carry, but for weapon retention. That was ingrained into me on every day of training. Retain your weapon. Not just because you could be shot with your own weapon but for other rather litigious reasons. SO I personally prefer a thumb strap on my holsters.
More for JayG and the rest than for Dragon; Condition 2 is aka Israeli Carry for a reason. Krav Maga teaches (and instructors will happily demonstrate for the doubtful) that it is actually quicker and safer to physically disarm someone from within a ~20' range then it is to engage them with your own weapon (assuming the attacker is in a gun-in-hand stance and you aren't in a ready-to-draw position - IOW weapon concealed, hand off weapon). If you have enough time to safely draw your weapon to engage an attacker (presumably from a position of physical cover), then you also have time to cycle the action before taking aim. A 1911 cannot have a negligent discharge from Condition 2, no matter how often you handle your weapon (pace Tam).
Yes, I'm a Krav Maga student, and also yes, I carry my Colt Commander (CC, Texas) in Condition 2. When I'm not carrying my S&W 431PD (.32 H&R Mag) in a pocket holster. Or both, depending on the availability of pockets. :)
A thumb break holster is mostly for OWB holsters IMHO, IWB provides it's own retention mechanism.
Sorry, it's late; Condition 3 per your list.
If you want to deal with the risks inherent in each of the 1911 carry conditions, you need to choose the risk you can live with: accidentally shooting yourself, accidentally shooting someone else, or the gun not being ready to fire when you need it.
Or, just buy a .45 that works without those risky carry conditions. There are all-metal .45 alternatives to the 1911 design, if you have an irrational fear of plastic.
As an added bonus, the 1911 is a better bludgeon than a Glock/XD/M&P. Depending on how reliable your 1911 is that might be important.
http://www.yankeegunnuts.com/2010/12/20/the-1911-sucks/
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