Guns for Disaster: What to Have When Katrina Comes to Your Town
Pistol, rifle, shotgun. Three basics, with sound choices behind all three. Richard (hey, I know that guy!) recommends a Glock 19, a lever-action rifle in .30-30 or .44 Magnum, and a pump-action shotgun in either 12 or 20 gauge. Now, these are all fine recommendations, don't get me wrong. The Glock is a rock-solid reliable, high capacity choice that's hard to go wrong with - and, as mentioned in the article, if push comes to shove and you're forced to turn it in, well, it's a Glock 19... The rationale behind the lever action rifle makes sense - while your friends and neighbors might balk a bit at the gear ninja with full-blown M4gery, someone carrying their cherished deer rifle might not ruffle their feathers as much. And a shotgun is just a handy choice to have...
Now, of course, I have to disagree somewhat. Not so much with the pistol - I mean, I'd have my Sig P226, but that's just a personal preference. A Glock 21 would be my ideal choice for a SHTF pistol - reliable, up to 15 round capacity, and it's .45 ACP goodness (G-d's own pistol caliber). Plus, if you have to hand it over, well, it's a Glock. There are several billion more just like it... I won't disagree at all with the choice of a short(ish) barrel pump-action shottie, either. Sure, a Saiga-12 with different types of shot in different magazines would be keen, but the standard riot gun has been a weapon of war, police work, hunting, and home defense for going on three centuries now... Personally, I prefer the Mossberg 590, but that's only because a shotgun without a bayonet is like a day without sunshine... :)
The disagreement comes on the rifle part. My feeling is that if the SHTF, the feelings of the folks around you are secondary at best - you want the best tool for the job, and to hell with what the local Fudds think. If there's rioting and/or looting going in in close proximity to your neighborhood, I suspect that your neighbor who would normally be uneasy around you with your AR-15 would be positively giddy to know that someone in the neighborhood has a potent self-defensive arm. A standard hunting rifle sure beats a stern look and harsh language, but nothing says "Get off my lawn" like a bayonet and a beta mag...
The purpose of these guns in a riot/looting/SHTF situation are protection, plain and simple. We're not making friends, we're not fitting in, we're protecting that which is ours with the best tool for the job. An AR or AK is easily good out to 50/100 yards, so any long-distance needs are easily covered; combine with a couple reliable 30 or 40 round magazines, and any situation that might arise is covered - or you need air strike capability... Besides, if the sight of you walking around your property with an AR-15 slung over your shoulder convinces the roving band of thugs to turn aside from your cul-de-sac, you're miles ahead of the game...
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.That is all.
-Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
19 comments:
I think most SHTF/EOTWAWKI "best gun" postulations miss the most important point:
Have a gun. Any gun. Use the gun you have to get the gun you need.
The most valuable gun you can possibly have in an apocalyptic scenario, is the one for which you have ammo and magazines.
When the SHTF, there will be guns laying on the ground. Pick one, and go from there.
I have a bone to pick with the yardage numbers you give -
Even an AK should be good for man sized targets at 200+ yards. 50 yards is for the shotgun.
If you can't hit a man-sized target from more than 100 yards with a rifle, what rifle you have doesn't matter much.
Otherwise, I agree. I'd definitely have a mag fed rifle (and a few casket mags).
For the Katrina scenario in a city I would say Pistol of choice in caliber >= 9mm, M4gery, and 12Ga. Riot Gun of mfg of choice. The part that is really needed is a backup set stashed so that when the po-po takes your fist set you aren't left unarmed.
KBCraig,
Well, the idea behind these lists is to give an idea (ideas) as to what types of guns we think would be useful in SHTF/Katrina type situations. If you have and practice with these guns already, you're in good shape. If not, it wouldn't be the worst idea in the world to try.
Lupis,
Hitting a man sized target at 200 yards is one thing.
Hitting a human being at 200 yards, especially one that may very well be shooting back at you, is an entirely different thing.
I'm being conservative. Heh.
Teke,
Exactly. Two is one and one is none...
The whole idea that a lever/bolt action will be viewed as less of an issue/threat than a M4gery by the police is a foolish fallacy. In the eye of the officer, you are a "man with a gun", no matter if it is a rifle, or a shotgun. They will not care that you are carrying yer grandads 1894 .30-.30 or the newest "assault rifle".
In their minds, "it are a gun"...and therefore a threat. Period.
And if they are inclined to, they are gonna try and take it away.
And, actually, they are correct. A lever action is a deadly as any other rifle.
Not that they should see Joe Citizen a threat, mind you, but they will, no matter what form of arm you are carrying.
It is, really, all about control. If you don't give it up when they request, or at least put it away, they'll find some reason to arrest you, and gain posession that way.
Sadly, it is the cop mentality. It is the way they are trained, and it works for them....most of the time. And they are unlikely to understand the difference between normal times and SHTF. Some will, but most won't....at least not at first.
And your neighbors will either find your carrying a firearm acceptable, or they won't. The type of arm will not matter to the holophobe, nor will it matter to the person who is comfortable with you carring a rifle.
I'll go one quibble further.
Skip the shotgun.
Shotguns are for fowling. They have been pressed into other roles by legal requirements or because the owner only had the one gun. They are versatile hunting tools, but if you are going to have a rifle anyway, why have TWO long guns in different chamberings?
Virtually any handgun will do here, they are "gun at all" guns.
For the long arm, go common, get an AR in 5.56.
For urban riot protection? Full sized 9mm duty pistol, an AR in 5.56x45, matching kit for your partner and spares nearby.
While I have a lot of fun running my 870, I'd rather be shooting than loading when bad guys are coming.
For the EOTWAWKI? Keep a few long barreled shotties at the retreat for food gathering after the bad guys are all dead.
I'm with you, when things get ugly the people who will call you a nut suddenly want to be your friend. Chuck Heston told a story in an interview of people wanting to borrow guns from him during the LA riots. He turned them away because he knew they had never handled guns before.
My Mother-in-Law told me that when she watched the Stock market crash in 2008 her thoughts were "Maybe the Kids have the right idea with keeping all those guns"
I think its an extension of "No Atheists in a Foxhole" argument.
Also I'm with McThag, Shotguns are kickass, but they really are specialty pieces. But if you're best with a scatter gun, carry the scatter gun.
For me its 1911, Mossberg 590, FAL
And frankly I'd probably just leave the Mossberg because there aren't many instances where I'd drop the FAL and transition to the Mossy...and certainly I don't want to be dragging BOTH long arms around, as if I'm out and about in pandemonium, I likely have lots of other things to do besides shooting stuff.
I could go with the All Browning trifecta of: 1911, 1895, Auto-5.
Practically? 1911, AR, 870.
Not sure what a shotgun brings to the table, I'd skip it entirely. Bulky ammo and limited use for bugging out with.
An SKS would be great if you are out and about, or standing on your rooftop. An AR or AK would do a fine job if you were less concerned with the look.
And I wouldn't bother with any gun or pricey pre-ban magazine that I wasn't prepared to lose.
A couple points I don't read here yet. 1) in a SHTF situation, coming to the notice of others is one of the primary things you want to avoid. Any weapon that attracts the roving eye might also intimidate, but that's not the way to bet. 2) in a SHTF situation, you have too much to carry.
Any catastropic scenario imposes it's unique conditions (a power outage in Phoenix is a different circumstance from an outage in Anchorage whatever the calendar date), but all pose the same basic responses. Shelter in place or move probably being the most common/least avoidable dilemna, arming yourself must take both as fully into account as your opportunities permit. Without going into a lot of discussion, I will simply state that my own BOB includes all of my regular carry weapons (using several different, non-interfering carry methods), a heavy belt knife, a slung range bag w/ 500 rounds of 30-30 ammo and my Marlin lever gun on it's sling. There is more of course, but those are the weapon basics. No additional magazines to complicate the load, everything easily distributed and balanced whether hiking or bicycling, no easily damaged or eye catching equipment desired (no scope for instance). None of which detracts from the rifles utility in a fixed defense (which, btw permits access to alternative weapons like the SKS w/ folding bayonet for instance and the 2k rounds of ammo for it).
By the way Jay, the Sun Tzu quote you use at the end of your post addresses the philosophy which governs the actions any given position (person/country/etc) might avail themselves of, specifically to include yourself and allies. To wit; only that which is regarded as permissable will be prepared for. Knowing this of yourself and others guides your specific intelligence gathering efforts (both pro and con), but more importantly informs you as to what is most likely going to be successful if deployed against a specific target (again, to specifically include yourself and allies). It speaks more to capabilities and intentions than actual intelligence gathering per se. Or so I've read.
My dad was on the North Shore of Lake Pontchartrain across from New Orleans. Mom and Dad were one of 3 families in the 100 home neighborhood. All had pistols on the entire time. Long gun was too hard to carry while doing clean-up and repair work. A neighborhood over there was a firefight between residents and looters coming in though the woods in the back on 4 wheelers.
Are we talking Lord Of the Flies or just Survival?
If it's kill or be killed then an AR or AK will do the job. Whatever pistol you want is gravy and leave the shotgun at home. It's just dead weight.
But if it's survival then I want a lever action .22.
A) Due to a storm that took out power to my neighborhood a few years ago, the local Gooberment made a decision to place the Police Force on 24/7 duty guarding City Hall and the local Wally World. For 4 days, we were in the dark. My wife went down to City Hall and asked if we could get more Police Patrols. She was told that until the utilities got power up, we were on our own. When we got that word, all the Military Vets got together and set up a Armed Neighborhood Watch. I took the Night Shift, and my weapon of choice was my Smith 12 gauge pump, with my Smith 4043 on my hip. It came in handy when the local Teen Thugs thought we were Easy Pickin's.
B) This will be a Topic that I will bring up at the Gunnie Prom, but for a Long Term SHTF scenario, I'm reminded of what Col. Cooper wrote. Paraphrasing, he said that ALL firearms are really just Bullet Launching Systems, and it's the AMMO that should be Priority One, not what kind of Barrel it comes from. In 2011, based on what the U.S. Military and most Police Forces use, I believe that due to what AMMO will be easily Available as "Battlefield Pickups" in the United States, one should base their Weapon selection on 7.62 Nato, 5.56 Nato, 9mm, and 12 Gauge. .40 S+W may also be an acceptable alternative, depending on your Local Police Forces. HOW you choose to launch them up to you. Also, .50 cal Browning and .22 LR weapons would be good to have, but they should be considered Speciality Tools. YMMV, of course.
I'm sure the AR has many advantages in a SHTF situation but the 30-30 lever gun brings a level of stopping power that the 5.56 can't match.
To a lesser extent the same thing goes for the 7.62x39.
In any scenario short of a full on zombie apocalypse, I would think that grandpa's deer rifle would be more than adequate.
I'm with Alan, kind of, if you're going to have two SHTF long-arms, make one a semi-automatic in 5.56(for available ammo), and one a .22LR, that's your food gun.
SHTF choices here:
.45 Handguns: Ruger and Hi Points, equally accurate & reliable (VERY).
Non- brick like ruger is mo betta to carry, but the sub $200 price of the hi-point is a treat.
Semi auto rifle: The SKS is a great choice. They are dead nuts reliable clean or dirty. The 30 Cal FMJ projectile will punch thru 3/8 steel and is more accurate than I am. Very low recoil, cheap ammo and each rifle cost me less than $250.00.
12Ga Pump shotguns can be had for sub $200 most days.
Depends on the situation. Specifically, whether you're bugging out or hunkering down.
Where I live, we don't have hurricanes, and while floods sometimes happen nearby, if my neighborhood is flooded past shoe-sole height then we're talking about something more like Noah's flood than an ordinary weather event. 5 million people will drown before the water in the driveway reaches my wheel rims. Instead we get tornadoes (which either destroy you or ignore you, pretty capriciously, and don't give enough warning for "bug out" to make sense) and blizzards (about which I'm sure I don't have to tell Jay anything :) ).
And of course, when the zombies come, all bets will be off anyway. :)
So SHTF, for me, means something more like "defend the house" than "get to someplace safe". Hence the 12-gauge Mossberg and the 1911 are more likely to be a factor than the AR-15 is. Anything further away than what I can hit with them is something I'm not going to be shooting at, unless we actually are facing something very like the zombie apocalypse.
Folks in places with different sorts of disasters (or with real estate holdings that extend out past shotgun range) will, of course, have different sorts of needs.
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