Daniel in Brookline e-mailed me with a simply excellent set of questions that I thought might be applicable to many folks. He writes:
Hi Jay,Wow. Where to begin?
As a concealed-carrier and a father, are there times at home when you put away the gun for safety's sake?
(I'm not carrying right now -- my wife is still averse to me keeping my guns at home. I'll keep working on that. In the meantime, I've adjusted my wardrobe, bought a Dragon Leatherworks holster and a blue gun, and from time to time I carry it concealed at home; call it practice. Tonight I became uncomfortable with it when I was tucking the boys into bed; they're toddlers, and they were crawling all over me. Yes, Dennis is no slouch; yes, the holster covers the entire trigger guard; and yes, chances are that neither of my boys are yet strong enough to pull a gun out of the holster, to say nothing of pulling a Massachusetts trigger. I nonetheless had nightmare visions of them finding it, of it being not a blue gun but my Beretta, and having to deal with my toddler holding a gun.)
Am I being ridiculous here? Is the answer simply that, while tucking the boys in, I'd (a) make sure it's cocked and locked (or a revolver with an empty chamber), (b) move it to the small of my back, and (c) forget about it?
I'm also thinking of a relative who frequently comes to visit. She carries an S&W .38 snubby, all chambers loaded, tucked into her waistband (no holster). They boys don't generally crawl all over her, and I believe she carries at 4 o'clock or thereabouts, but still...
I welcome your advice. I honestly don't know if I'm right to be concerned. (I also wonder at what age I can begin educating the boys about guns. One is three, the other is one and a half.)
First off, no, you are not being ridiculous at all. Your kids are your most prized possession; never make any excuses for looking out for them in all possible ways. My kids were the reason I got back into shooting and carrying a firearm - it dawned on me that I was the first line of defense for them, and that I should have the best tools for that job. If I never have to draw my firearm I will go to my grave a happy man; however, I could not live with myself if something happened to my kids and my actions could have prevented it.
Secondly, my dirty little secret is that I'm not always carrying a gun in my house. The entry is pretty secure; anyone coming in through the front door is either going to be slowed down enough for me to make it to a safe or they're coming in so hard and fast that having a .38 in my pocket ain't gonna help much. That said, there's a lot of times where I'll come home from errands or something and have my CCW piece on my belt. The kids are at the point where they'll hug me and not even notice the holster.
Education is the key; I recommended the NRA's Eddie Eagle program for at least the three year old. It's never too early to start teaching kids gun safety, and even if you hate guns with every fiber of your being and won't let your kids have even a squirt gun, you can't watch them 24/7/365. Give them the knowledge to be safe rather than try to shelter them from things. End sermon. Make sure they know the Four Rules. Make sure they understand that daddy's guns are not toys.
Teach them, like my dad taught me as a wee sprog, that daddy's guns are not forbidden fruit but a tool that a grown-up needs to help them with in order to be safe - that is, if they want to look at a gun, use it as a learning experience. Show them how to safely handle a firearm, checking to make sure it's unloaded, keeping their finger off the trigger, the gun pointed in a safe direction. Heck, letting them dry fire it is a great idea - you'll know immediately if they are capable of pulling the trigger should the worst happen.
That said, a quick and easy suggestion I had was to get a pair of "tactical" pants like the 5.11 Covert Tactical that have a zippered inside pocket. LCP/P3AT/J-frame etc. in a good pocket holster zipped inside the pants is not going to fall out under any circumstance. And there's always the option of tossing the gun in the safe before playing with the kids - that's usually what I do. Heck, TheBoy is getting close to my size, and when he wants to wrestle, he's playing for keeps now... ;)
As for the relative, well, my first thought was, "wow, you know Plaxico's sister!" Since he knows this person and has the best assessment of her situation awareness as well as his kids' level of activity, it's his call - personally, I'd tell her to get a holster just because Mexican carry is the dumbest way to carry a firearm possible, and it's only a matter of time before she shoots herself in the leg... If it's one of those Clipdraw deals, that's a little better, but still best to keep the kids away if there's any doubt.
So, any other thoughts/ideas/suggestions?
That is all.
20 comments:
I ain't an expert on handguns and handgun safety... but I follow ALL of the official rules (I'm a 4 rule guy) and I follow a few rules not mentioned there.
ALWAYS use a proper holster. If you carry a gun without a proper case or holster, you aren't walking into my house. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. You WILL be safe around me and my family or you won't be around my family.
Here in Utah, it's illegal to be in someone's home with a gun after they have asked you not to bring the gun there and I'd use that law.
I don't have kids yet, and everybody living in my home, as well as the vast majority of my house guests are licensed to carry in Massachusetts, so my day-to-day at home isn't particularly relevant to the discussion.
That being said I have several friends and relatives with young kids.
Step 1 have a good holster (While my offerings from Dragon Leatherworks are not my EDC holsters, any holster that can be inverted with the gun in it without slippage is more than enough retention, also a retention device can make up for a less aggressive holster) Remember its not "Can my kids pull my gun out?" its "Can my kids pull my gun out without me knowing?"
You should always be aware of your gun and if something unsafe or otherwise compromising STARTS to happen, drop everything you're doing and correct things.
I make it a point to always carry on-body, its the safest place for a gun to be because you're always in contact with it.
That being said with little fingers around extra precautions are a good idea. When I sleep over at my sister-in-law's house I carry my J-Frame. Whenever the gun comes off my body it gets unloaded and locked with a trigger lock or stored in a locked box. It means I won't be able to get my gun to the ready in a heart beat, but I CAN get to it, but its safe from prying fingers.
As for rough-housing I keep it to a minimum anyway because any roughhousing that might dislodge a gun might also hurt a kid. Not only in play, but in work, chores and getting stuff done I find myself rolling around, and crawling on the floor. I'm confident my holster works how it should.
That being said there are lots of times when I've chosen to disarm because I was concerned about safety. I don't carry a gun when I ride my bike, for instance. There's no shame in it. Carry is all about risk assessment. I assessed that the risks of dumping a gun on the highway, or exposing my gun while on my bike is vastly greater than me actually needed to draw my gun (and I can "Run Away" a lot faster on a bike) in my assessment. I also don't carry in states that don't recognize my right to be armed. That sucks, but I'm more concerned about getting a felony conviction for illegal carry than needing to defend my life. Shitty to weigh things like that, but its a reality. I'm sure the same could be done with kids.
Also good on you with the blue gun. This is a 100% safe way to not only get comfortable with carry, but also discover potential problems or concerns with zero risk.
I wrote a post about people just starting to get comfortable with carry you might be interested in:
http://www.weerdworld.com/2011/easing-into-carry/
Be as
Lots of good advice here. Thanks for sharing it, folks.
One thought I'd add to the idea of educating the kids. As they get older they'll have friends coming over to the house. You can teach your kids to be safe around weapons but you can't necessarily teach their friends. Have a plan for securing your guns from curious rugrats.
Showing you can retain control of the blue gun might help ease some of the wife's fears too.
Dave, that's an EXCELLENT point. It's the perfect corollary to my admonition to teach your kids gun safety even if you don't have a gun in the house.
MA requires all guns not on your person to be under lock and key. Even if this were not the case, I wouldn't leave a firearm lying around unsecured.
1. Carry whenever and wherever you can legally do so.
2. Get a holster the gun will not fall out of. Ever. If you wonder if your holster will retain your pistol when you're roughhousing with a child, what's going to happen if you're struggling with a criminal? The police have gone to retention holsters for a reason.
3. Get a safe. If you have one gun, it can be a small safe. But get a safe large enough to hold all the guns you own. Any gun that is not in your immediate control goes in the safe. It isn't just your child you need to be concerned with. In this society a teenager that breaks into your house and steals an unsecured gun could put you in some liability.
4. Get some sort of lockable storage for ammo and/or reloading supplies. This might just be an old locker in the basement with a padlock. Something to prevent curiosity from exceeding the training you give them.
I have two toddlers and routinely pocket carry an LCP in a DeSantis Nemesis. I am always a bit anxious (searching for the right word-anxious is too strong) when one of them climbs in my lap, and I have a little bit of a cringe when one of them walks in front of me because they have been muzzled.
Since it's a cheap holster, I check for trigger coverage each time I pocket it and I am planning on just buying a new one every 12-18 months or so.
Or I could probably see if Dennis has something for sale that will last a long time...
LC Scotty,
I'm working on him, believe me... ;)
Big one is making sure your kid is educated and his curiosity satisfied.
If he asks to see, show him. Make sure when they're curious it happens under your supervision, and when they get curious they know they can come ask.
When you have your guns out for cleaning, involve them. That's the big thing, involve your children. I actually do not remember a time in my life without firearms. Seriously I do not remember the first time I ever pulled the trigger on a life rifle. My dad did though and said it was one of the happiest days of his life. I evidently spent a lot of time helping my dad clean them as well.
Involving your children though does more than just educate them about firearms. It provides solid one on one time with your children. It's more time you spend with them that your kids will never forget. (Seriously, there's two things I remember distinctly doing with my dad, the first is shooting, the second is flying.)
Anyone with kids and guns absolutely needs to read Kathy Jackson's writings at corneredcat.com.
I recommend a Safepacker holster from Wilderness Tactical Products worn either on the belt or with the Runner's Pack for bicycling or worn with the shoulder strap. This rig can comfortably hold a J-frame revolver with speed loaders or speed strips, or a pistol with spare magazines, yet does not scream "gun". Also check out SmartCarry holsters for deep concealment and limited access by others. Think of it as a toolbelt for wear under your pants, kilt, or skirt. Alternately, use a good quality holster with retention features. Avoid Small of Back (SOB) holsters that have no retention features other the leather formed around the trigger guard.
If you can carry a small pocket pistol, there are many pocket pistol holsters that limit printing of the pistol when worn in your pocket, especially if worn in a front pocket. Would you notice someone reaching in and lifting your wallet if you carried it in a front pocket?
The safepacker may not scream gun, but it does scream something's going on here / I am a huge dork. I think a concealment holster that hides its entire existence instead of just the gun is a far superior choice. Also, there are significant access issues should you ever need to use it, especially if the bad guy is close.
I think retention worries around kids are overblown for a proper belt mounted IWB holster. I've wrestled over sim guns with trained adults. The amount of effort, skill, and strength involved in taking someone's gun from their holster is pretty significant; it won't happen by accident.
I agree with everyone here + education, education, education.
Teach your kids about the guns. Teach them when they are little not to touch - whether it is on the floor, the table, or in a holster on Dad's hip. As they grow up teach them when and how to touch and handle them.
Two of my three kids shoot. My third abhors guns, doesn't like them, won't shoot them, hates having them in the house, wants nothing to do with them. Even more she hates the once a year training session where she is required to go to the range with us and load, shoot, make safe, and properly store several different handguns and rifles.
Now that she is 14 we have stopped forcing her to shoot them, but she still has to go with us and demonstrate that she can safetly pick it up, check to see if it is loaded, unload it and make it safe.
Yep, our wonderful school system with its pansy sniffin, tree hugging, love everyone teachers managed to corrupt one of my children. But there may still be hope for her. She discovered last week, that her two most favorite teachers in the world, and her favorite choir director - shoot. She is struggling with that. We have invited one of the teachers to go cowboy shooting with us next month. She said yes as long as my youngest comes along to watch her. We'll see how it goes.
Wonderful advice, folks! Many, many thanks to you all, and most especially to our Kindly Host for getting the ball rolling.
Daniel: The fact that you care enough to ask the question shows you're halfway to the answer. Thanks for asking it in a way we could all learn from it. (And thanks to Jay for hosting it.)
Hey Dan,
I wanted to add to what everyone else has stated, but couldn't really think of saying anything that wasn't already offered up. Keep being vigilant and conscientious about your sidearm, and you'll be just fine...the best gun safety sits between your ears.
@JayG....yeah, you're working on me from a few different angles. Hopefully once the move is complete (I'm back in NY painting and doing maintenance on the house before listing it...) and I get the shop set back up the week of October 10th, I'll be able to do some R&D in between filling my November orders. So far I've got mag carriers, pocket holsters, and belts on the to-do list...
Did I miss anything? ;-)
Having little experience with this topic myself, I always refer people to Kathy Jackson's site when keeping guns around family comes up.
http://corneredcat.com/
Thanks again, all!
Hoping this post hasn't gotten stale yet -- I'm looking for a new place in Massachusetts to shoot. Recommendations, anyone?
What I'm looking for is (a) a place that's not too far from Boston, (b) lets me store my guns locally, and (c) will let me bring non-licensed guests (e.g. wife and kids).
I currently do my shooting in Dorchester (BGRA); they're not too far, and I rent a locker there, but they don't permit non-licensed guests. Other local ranges (e.g. Mystic Valley in Medford) allow guests without LTCs, but won't allow storage of guns in their lockers.
Thoughts?
many thanks,
Daniel
P.S. -- Dennis, the Fugly and Flatjack you made for me are great. Good luck with your move!
BGRA is the only range I know of where you can store guns. Why not keep your guns at home?
zeeke42: my wife doesn't want guns stored in the house. (Yes, we have a safe, and yes, she knows I have cable locks as well.)
Maybe one day this will change. So far, the only flexibility I've seen in this was a half-hearted interest in tarnhelm.com's Magna-Trigger (what Massad Ayoob called "Fluffy the pet revolver"); I may pursue that at some point, but I'd still need a place to store my other guns.
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