In keeping with yesterday's missive on "that" question, today's sermon is on the controversial question of what to do when one has a run-in with Johnny Law. Specifically, do you tell the officer that you are carrying or not? For simplicity's sake we'll set the LEO encounter as a routine traffic stop, say for speeding or running a red light.
Now, first off, the very most important thing here is to know the laws of the state(s) in which you are carrying a concealed firearm. I don't think I can stress that enough. Some states, MA ironically enough, do not require that you inform a police officer as to your status. Other states, ironically TX being one of them, make it a requirement of the CHL permit that an officer be informed of the CHL permit holder's carry status ASAP.
So, for those of you in states where you are required to inform the officer, do it.
The rest of this post will focus on those of us in states where there is no duty to inform. What follows is my own personal opinion and nothing more; I have never been pulled over while carrying (knocking on wood furiously here), in fact, I've only been pulled over a handful of times since getting my permit at all. Don't rely on some retarded chimp banging on a keyboard for legal advice, that's what my mom always told me (well, "retarded chimp" may be a little creative license on my part...)
Over at the Northeastshooters forum, this debate has been waged pretty intensively. There's input from folks in the law enforcement community, and it runs pretty heavily towards "keep your damn fool mouth shut."
Which is my take on things.
Let's face it: Any police officer who does not approach every single traffic stop with the mindset that the operator - or passengers - could be armed is setting himself (or herself) up for trouble.
Knowing that the operator has a permit to carry shouldn't make a lick of difference - they should be approaching each and every stop with the thought in their mind that this person could be armed.
Whether or not the CCW status of the vehicle owner is relayed to the responding officer is another point of contention - some localities relay this information, some do not. In any case, I would caution not to inform unless asked.
That's the key phrase. Unless you are asked. If you are asked by the officer, DO NOT LIE. Not for any reason. Cops do not like surprises, especially surprises that go bang and can kill them. If you lie to the officer, you are in for a world of hurt and rightfully so.
Word of caution: Try to phrase your response without using the word "gun" or "weapon" or even "firearm". If the officer asks "Do you have any weapons in the car?" (or something to that effect), I'd respond "Officer, I have a Class A LTC [insert your state's abbreviation here] and I am carrying right now. Please advise how you would like me to proceed."
Another reason for informing the officer would be if there is any chance, no matter how slight, that your actions inside the car might reveal your carry weapon. If you're carrying on your left side, for example, and you reach over into the glove box while the officer is looking into the car, will your cover garment ride up and reveal your pistol? See above comment about surprises.
Definitely inform the officer if you are asked to leave the car - let's face it, there are very few reasons for an officer to ask you to step out of the vehicle; even fewer that do not result in you tasting asphalt; and it will swirl down the bowl even faster if you hop out with your Glock hanging in the breeze...
I try to minimize the chances of such encounters while carrying or transporting just out of a general desire to avoid conflict and de-stressify my life. However, sometimes things are beyond your control. When I was 19, I was cruising Hampton Beach with some friends and I was the subject of a felony stop. It seems that a plate somewhat close to mine had been reported stolen, and the rent-a-cops on the beach patrol thought they had their car theft ring nailed down.
Aside: Far be it from me to cast aspersions... But I was 19; Italian (dark hair, slicked back, dark skin); in a Buick Regal with tinted windows and hot green pinstriping (including "heartbeats" on the side and rear windows - ask commenter sci-fi, his remark was that my car was very "ethnic"...).
Anyhoo, the car was surrounded by officers; two cars in front, one behind, with beat cops coming over to assist. I was asked for my ID and registration, and when I went to retrieve the registration from the glove box I wound up with a Glock in my face because I apparently moved too quickly.
Yes, before you ask, I did manage to maintain control over my bowels.
Barely.
Anyways, come to find out the cop was dyslexic (as well as unable to distinguish the letters "MA" from "NH") and the plate that had been reported stolen was not the one on my car. They let me go with not even so much as a "sorry" for detaining me, at gunpoint, for well over an hour.
And this was me just driving along!
Bottom line, expect and prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Sage advice for any situation. Don't tell unless you have to; always be honest; and "yes sir" (or ma'am) and "no sir" the officer until they're sick of hearing it...
That is all.
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9 comments:
Jay, can you perhaps link to the specific discussion thread(s) at Northeast Shooters?
This post, especially the line about "don't lie to a cop," reminds me of a couple of videos that went viral on many gunnie sites a month or two ago. They're on YouTube as "Don't Talk to Cops, Part 1" and "Don't Talk to Cops, Part 2." Short summary: cops aren't there to prove any specific person innocent or guilty. Their goal when investigating a crime is to build a case for the prosecutor. They'll do that any remotely-legal way they can.
All officers are individuals, and most of them are decent human beings who won't give you a hard time without good reason. But some are more interested in getting _a_ suspect than in getting _the right_ suspect. If a cop like that is investigating a shooting, and you somehow come close to being linked to the victim and you're carrying, the mere fact that you're carrying will be used against you -- even if you have a legal permit, and even if your gun doesn't match the weapon used. Unscrupulous cops can use anything against you if they want to.
Great blog and and great discussion on a touchy subject. The question I have is if/when a LEO pulls you over for a routine traffic stop, does they're computer show that the owner of the vehicle has a LTC??
Anonymous, it probably varies by state, but in Tennessee it's tied to the driver license, not the vehicle license plate. Once they run your license they'll know you have a permit, but they won't from the license plate.
A few other tips for being pulled over while carrying or not:
-Roll your window down
-Radio off
-Cell phone away
-Both hands on wheel at 10 and 2
-If it's dark, turn interior light on
-Don't get wallet/purse etc. or rummage in the glove box until asked
-Let them know if you need to open the glove box
Tennessee doesn't have duty to inform, but you're required to say when asked. I've actually gotten out of a ticket before when the first thing I said to the officer was "I have a carry permit and I'm currently armed. What would you like me to do?" He asked me what I was carrying and a conversation about the P2000SK ensued--seems it had just made the duty list for his agency as a backup gun. We chatted for a few minutes about it, next thing I know he's saying, "Well, I'll just give you a warning this time..."
I was taught in my CHL class in North Carolina to always tell an officer if I was carrying, though it is not required by the law.
This was by one of the handful of people in the state who certifies all Police Firearms Instructors and CHL Instructors.
I'm in a State (Nebraska) that requires us to inform the officer, but your "Officer, I have a Class A LTC [insert your state's abbreviation here] and I am carrying right now. Please advise how you would like me to proceed." is almost exactly what was covered in the CHP class I took. Only the instructor said avoid acronymns: Say "Nebraska Concealed Handgun Permit".
Different states call their permit different things-here it is a "CHP". In Kalifornia, that my lead a Hiway Patrolman to to the idea you are on something and you believe you have one of his co-workers hidden in your vehichle... Around here, mentioning a "LTC" might cause a "Stater" to think you are trying to give the impression that you know his Boss.....
My instructor also added all of snarl's steps.
-Roll your window down
-Radio off
-Cell phone away
-Both hands on wheel at 10 and 2
-If it's dark, turn interior light on
-Don't get wallet/purse etc. or rummage in the glove box until asked
-Let them know if you need to open the glove box
....... And stressed, abve all, DON'T PANIC.
Also, he suggested keeping your vehichle registration and current proof of insurance together on your sun visor, to avoid rooting around and lenthening the stop, so you can go on your merry way, and he can get back to catching Bad Guys/generating revenue.....
wolfwalker,
Unfortunately, it's been more bits and pieces as parts of threads. I can't recall there being one specific thread on "what to do". You might check the "gun laws" section under MA law - it may have come up there.
In any case, you really can't go wrong spending time at NES. :)
anon,
That can vary literally from town-to-town as well as state-to-state. I've heard that in OH, for example, the computer indicates when the registered owner of the vehicle has a concealed permit. Here in MA, some jurisdictions do provide that info, some don't (from what tidbits I've gleaned).
the snarl,
Excellent list for anytime you get pulled over. It's quite similar to what my dad (retired MA state police) told me to do if/when I got pulled over (He added the "yes sir", "no sir" as well).
georgeh,
That's up to each individual. I have, fortunately, never had to make the decision. Where I'm in MA, I'm loathe to let on that I have a firearm on my person for any reason if not legally obligated.
There have been stories (and, yes, I realize quite well that data is not the plural of anecote...) where folks have had the full felony stop treatment (pulled from car, proned on ground, etc.) after telling the officer that they were armed. Why take the chance?
Like I said, though, if there is even the tiniest chance your carry piece might conceivably be seen, speak up immediately. Surprises can be fatal...
jimbob86,
Thanks for the back-up on wording! Good point on the avoiding acronyms, too.
I'm not a cop, but I was a crime reporter for years and did ride-alongs frequently. I was also a CCW holder.
I've always done pretty much what everyone else said, with the exception that I did, on the two occasions I was pulled over while armed(mistakes as it turned out) inform the officer that I was armed and asked him how he would like me to proceed.
Cops have become increasingly aggressive and militarized since then, so I'm not sure that's still a wise idea, but personally I'd be happy to be taken from the car, frisked and have the weapon removed than risk inadvertently scaring the officer.
Scared people make mistakes. scaring a cop on a traffic stop is a very good way to get pumped full of lead. Keeping hands at 10-2, smiling, a quick informational explanation and I had no problems.
They just asked me to move slowly and show them the permit(I kept it in the same wallet envelope as the D/L) and didn't even ask to see the weapon.
I honestly think CCW holders are more paranoid on this subject than neccessary. In my experience, it's a lot more likely that something will occur to alert the officer you are armed and scare the hell out of him (possibly resulting in tragedy) than it is that you will be put face-down on pavement and handcuffed.
My opinion, worth exactly what you all paid for it:)
In Missouri the Troopers almost always preface the roadside chat with "Do you have any guns,knives or other weapons with you". MO. now allows concealed carry in/on your vehicle, home, shelter etc. with NO permit.
Anonymous said:
"MO. now allows concealed carry in/on your vehicle, home, shelter etc. with NO permit."
To quote a great song:
"I'm goin to, Kansas City, Kansas City here I come...."
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