This past Saturday I attended a Christmas party at the home of one of Mrs. G.'s co-workers. Chatting with a friend of mine, I admitted that I wasn't exactly thrilled about going, as I don't really know these people (except hearing Mrs. G. bitch about some of them, but that's fodder for another time...). My friend suggested that I pick up a six-pack of beer and make the best of it. I replied that I don't drink anyways, but also that I'd be carrying that evening (out of the house and all...)
Well, my friend was surprised at that. Asked if I had told the hosts of the party my intentions. Since this is the volksrepublik of MA, where gun ownership, let alone CCW, is viewed similarly to bestiality, I admitted I hadn't. I've always gone by the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy favored by the US Armed Forces when it comes to carrying a concealed weapon, and just assumed that all CCW holders did the same.
This got me to wondering, though: was I out of line? Do folks who carry regularly make a habit of informing people when they're carrying? Is is just limited to gun-unfriendly areas? Am I just a big fat hairy boor?
People who know me know that, unless I am going to work or to a place where I'll be searched, I'll be carrying a firearm. If they do not want me to carry into their homes and request such, I will be more than happy to comply - I may be an unintentional boor, but I try hard not to be boorish intentionally...
So, then, the question is, to inform, or not to inform, that is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the shock and disdain of gun-fearing wussies, or to leave our arms at home, defenseless against a sea of troubles, and by eschewing arms, end our chances of survival. To die, as sheep; no more; and as sheep we meet our end. (with apologies to Billy S.)
That is all.
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45 comments:
I say don't make an announcement of the fact.
I'm still not sure who (outside of immediate family) know that I have a CCW-permit. I carry as often as legally permissible.
My home is gun free. If you do not have a gun, one will be provided - free.
Seriously, I wouldn't tell (nor ask) it's not an issue. Nobody at the party will interact with your sidearm, and your sidearm will not interact with anyone. A sidearm is akin to a leatherman in your pocket. It's there, you know it, nobody else cares.
2c
As far as I'm concerned, everyone falls into one of two groups - either they know me well enough they would automatically assume I'm armed, or it's none of their damn business.
Hence, I think you're right on the money with "don't ask don't tell".
DADT
Sounds like a plan; and one that I firmly believe in.
Unless the people are known to be anti-firearm and have stated they don't want any firearms in their house, I wouldn't ask or tell as the others have stated.
If their feelings on the subject are known, I would either respect their wishes (might lock it in a travel safe in the car) or not go.
And you are all wrong.
You cannot expect people to respect your right to self defense, if you don't respect their property rights.
One of their property rights, is deciding who gets to be there, and whether they can carry weapons while there.
You may not like it, you may scream about "your right to defend yourself" all you want, but you have a moral obligation to allow a property owner to make an informed decision about allowing you on their property.
This is an absolute. There is no wiggle room or balancing of interes here. Either they have property rights or they don't. If they do, you are obligated to inform them. If they don't, then neither do you.
Now, it's all very well and good to say "I don't let anyone into my house who I don't trust with a gun". In fact, I follow that same policy. Many people however don't think about such things.
If you feel that you must be armed in someone elses house, and they don't want you to be, then DON'T GO THERE. That way, neither of you has to compromise on your rights.
Oh and before someone starts whining about how "I shouldnt have to compromise my rights", YES YOU SHOULD.
When you are on someone elses property, MANY OF THEIR RIGHTS TRUMP YOURS.
Just as while you are on your property, your rights trump theres.
It goes both ways.
Of course you always have the right to defend yourself. No property owner can decide otherwise. Even if they made you sign a contract to say you wouldn't defend yourself, that would be invalid because it violate your absolute right to defend yourself.
However, the property owner also has an absolute right to decide what objects come onto their property.
This is the point where your constrained right (and yes, the right to carry a firearm is a constrained right) meets their UNCONSTRAINED (or what SHOULD be unconstrained, the vagaries of the state notwithstanding) right to determination of what comes onto their property, and in THIS ONE AND ONLY CIRCUMSTANCE, their right trumps yours.
Remember that whole "Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose", well that's his nose, and you have to stop swinging.
"However, the property owner also has an absolute right to decide what objects come onto their property."
OK Chris, what about a renter? What if my landlord said "No Guns?"
Ehh....
I'm sympathetic to Chris's argument, in that it's the other guy's house, his rules. I wouldn't carry if he asked me not to or if I knew he would object if I asked. On the other hand, I don't ask the manager of every store I carry into if it's okay. (From my perspective, even if not by law, the two situations are the same--someone else's property) But, if the store has a no-guns sign (hardly carries any legal force in VA), I'll go elsewhere.
So, in practice, don't ask, don't tell, but I won't disregard someone's wishes if he makes it known.
For perspective, I'm in VA, and as I discovered recently, nearly half my church has carry permits, including my pastor. Which was somewhat surprising--at a church thing, we had a list that we were supposed to find someone who fit the description (had a movie stub on them, went ice skating that week, that sort of thing.) and the very first item was has a carry permit. Weird, but cool, too.
Mike,
Depends on whether it's in your lease or not.
If it's not in your lease, he cannot prohibit your posession of firearms after the fact.
When you lease from someone, they contract with you to assume their right of tennancy with conditions as specified in a lease, or rental agreement. Therefore they have delegated the rights of tennancy to you, along with the subsidiary rights associated with it.
However, if the terms of your lease forbid firearms, then yes, you are violating their property rights by having them.
Again, the solution is simple, don't rent from them.
'06, in the case of premises which offer public accommodation (private property which opens themselves up to the public, like retail stores etc...), property rights still apply (actually, property rights ALWAYS apply, it's just that they are sometimes superseded by other things); however it is incumbent on the property owner to make their wishes known clearly, in setting conditions for access.
Also, as a state licensed entity operating such a property with a public accommodation, there are some laws and strictures set by the state as to what restrictions are acceptable as conditions for access. The state can for example state as a condition of licensing, that a business may not bar black people from entering.
Importantly, the state cannot set such a bar on your private home; and is only able to do so on a business, because that business is licensed, and therefore they can legitimately set the conditions of licensing.
Of course whether business licensing is a legitimate power of the state is another discussion entirely.
Chris:
I don't see anyone here advocating going against the express wishes of property owners--I agree that if someone has said "no guns" I should abide by it. I'll also abide by a "no boxer shorts" rule, but I don't see a reason to poke around and ask if either rule exists. I carry as a general rule, most people I know well enough to visit know that.
Oh and by this conception of rights, a PUBLIC entity, may NOT bar firearms.
Any law banning firearms born by anyone with a lawful right to do so from public property of any kind is illegitimate. It is no different than if they banned black people from entering the courthouse.
Remember, the government is not a separate individual entity from the people. It has no special rights privileges or immunities above or separate from those of the people. The government is merely a collective of citizens to which we delegate some of our rights privileges and immunities.
All powers and actions of the government must be derived from those rights, privileges, immunities, powers, and actions which are possessed by an individual, and can then be delegated to the state.
Again, whether the state assuming and extending such rights and privileges to the degree it has is legitimate, is another argument entirely.
Sevesteen,
I should note, I am being somewhat severe in this; you're right it isn't absolutely necessary to inform someone as you walk onto their property whether you are armed or not.
However, it is a common courtesy going back literally thousands of years. It is in fact the purpose of various headgear rules and saluting conventions in the military.
It is not necessary to assume that all property owners would restrict your rights on their property; but arms are a special category that people have had the expectation of notification for, at least in western culture since medieval times.
By not notifying the property owner (discretely certainly), what are you achieving?
If you don't want them to know you are armed, than you should not be there. If you are afraid they will ask you to leave, than you are simply employing sophistry to abrogate their rights.
Oh and by the by, I also advocate open carry whenever legal; and prudent.
It's good to remind people that carrying arms is NORMAL. That it is legal and that lots of law abiding people do it.
Chris,
I think you are backwards on this one. Posession of a legal item, unbenknownst to anyone, is not a reason for concern. Although, there is at least one state that forces a guest to announce to the homeowner that they are armed.
But if you are on prescription drugs, would you tell a homeowner that you had said drugs on your person?
A few years ago, Thanksgiving dinner - my uncle sat down at the table openly carrying a sidearm. We were all taken aback by it. Of course, we were only surprised by the *open* carry. Everone else at the table was concealed.
I grew up in MA, where concealed is legal, and not concealed is a 'brandishing' charge. Telling someone you have a gun is grounds for 'assault with a deadly weapon'
One more thing. There is a bit of Arizona law that I think gets it right.
In Arizona, both open and concealed carry are allowed in most places; both public and private (there is a list of exceptions that I won't get into here).
However, there is a proviso built into the law which states that those carrying weapons must make every reasonable attempt to accommodate the wishes of the property owner.
So if you know someone is anti-gun, and you go to their house armed anyway, you are not just abrogating their rights, you are actually breaking the law (you're committing criminal trespass).
Of course if you don't know they are anti-gun, then you aren't.
It's a sticky point here actually, and there have been numerous lawsuits over the subject; after all it can be hard to impossible to prove prior knowledge and deliberate violation.
That's OK with me though; because it sets forth the principle properly.
It is not necessary to assume that you are barred from bearing arms, however if you know or become aware of it, you must respect it.
Wally, I grew up in MA as well. Differing local laws and standards always apply (unfortunately in the case of fundamental rights; where there really should only be one standard).
If you were them, would you want to know?
Chris, I have to disagree. Your property rights end at my person. It is none of your (as the property owner) business what is in my pants/wallet/purse/pockets. If you must be absolutely sure there are no guns on my person, you have to ASK to frisk me. To do otherwise is ASSAULT. If I refuse to be frisked or answer your inquiries about CCW or anything else (you don't like the color of coat I have on), you are within your rights to ask me to leave. If I do not, I am TRESSPASSING. If you invite me in without telling me I can not carry a gun or wear pink underwear or don't wear any at all or anything else you might find in any way objectionable .... I am free to do so until you say I can not, because you forgot to say so. Don't want to ask? Post a sign. That is what businesses have to do.
Bottom line:
"So, in practice, don't ask, don't tell, but I won't disregard someone's wishes if he makes it known."
A concealed handgun is like your underwear: It's there in case of emergency, but not something you discuss with passerby.
As for OC, it is a tactical disadvantage, making you target #1 for any serious crook or wannabe tough guy. Don't get me wrong, OC should be allowed everywhere..... but in the real world, it is not a good idea if CCW is an option.
I think an anti-gun property owner has an obligation to let people know if they go as far as to ban carry. If they do, I would absolutely agree that we should respect that right.
"I told you I voted Obama, you should have known I don't want guns here" isn't good enough to be a crime.
P.S. - My coat is Brown. :)
Sevesteen - What do you think of making property owners liable for the protection of patrons.
If a business says "no guns here" do they have an obligation to provide protection to those they've told to disarm?
Yaknow, I think I should clarify here.
I don't think an absolute requirement exists that you always inform a property owner that you are armed on their premesis. However, if you know they either want to know, or do not want arms on their property, you DO have an absolute obligation to inform them, and to leave if requested.
I do however believe that longstanding western cultural courtesy requires that you inform a private homeowner if you are going to enter their home under arms. That is not a matter of rights, it is a matter of courtesy and propriety. Again, if they request or require that you not be armed on their property, you must respect that.
Mike W.
I'm all for that. If you want to bar arms from your premesis, you should be liable for the safety of those within.
In fact, whether you bar arms or not, you should be liable; but when someone chooses to bear arms, they disclaim you of that liability and accept the responsibility for themselves, as they should as functioning adults.
"However, if you know they either want to know, or do not want arms on their property, you DO have an absolute obligation to inform them, and to leave if requested."
Absolutely.
If there is any question whatsoever, I will inform, or simply not darken their door. End of question.
I hadn't really considered it in cases where it wouldn't come up.
Chris, you make a very good point about property rights; one that I agree with. If there is any hint at all that the person might not be receptive, I won't carry a firearm.
No one's business but your own.
And yes, to tell someone you hardly know that you're packing, without a specific need to do so is boorish.
Perhaps it's just my perspective on the issue, but I assume that any of my guest will be carrying some form of weapon.
From a pocketknife suitable for trimming string/fingernails to concealed carry of whatever lawful firearm they can tote.
Isn't it incumbent on the host to assume that the guest can be following the law? Therefore, wouldn't it be incumbent on the host to let people know if carrying was unwelcome?
Bottom line: If I have a problem with a person carrying in my house, I probably have a problem with that person and wouldn't want them in my house.
Jay:
When they open the door to greet you, start off with "This is a glock 40 caliber. I am the only one in this room professional enough to handle this firearm"
Or, dont even mention it. It's such a non issue. (in fact in PRM, it will probably go over poorly for you - and worse for Mrs G as any bad press may be reflected in her paycheck or lack thereof)
Food for thought to Jay and questions to Chris.
a) as a host, would you want to know about perscription drugs in my pocket?
b) should I tell the person seated next to me on the bus that I have a sidearm?
c) should I tell the busdriver that I have a sidearm?
d) your first date with a new gal is tonight at 8PM, do you tell her, and if so when?
(imo- carrying responsibly isn't a point for social discussion. i would not walk into a party and say "i bought this gun last week after i got bored watching gay porn while my girlfriend was having an abortion")
"And yes, to tell someone you hardly know that you're packing, without a specific need to do so is boorish."
My point exactly: Telling someone you hardly know all about your underwear would be boorish. Not their business, and it would be rude to make it their business.
"However, if you know they either want to know, or do not want arms on their property, you DO have an absolute obligation to inform them, and to leave if requested. "
I am not a mind reader. If I was, and I understood that they did not trust me to the point they don't want me armed, I would not go to their house.
") your first date with a new gal is tonight at 8PM, do you tell her, and if so when?
"
Back to the underwear.... if you are intimate enough with someone to show them undergarments....
.... and if you find yourself discussing your undergarments on the first date, and she does not bolt, RUN. You don't want any of that.
"Or, dont even mention it. It's such a non issue. (in fact in PRM, it will probably go over poorly for you - and worse for Mrs G as any bad press may be reflected in her paycheck or lack thereof)"
Not sure what Mrs. G's paycheck has to do with bad press, but... ;)
That's another thing. If I tell someone that I am armed, and they freak out and call the cops (and this is MA, folks; it can and probably has happened), I can be charged with assault. I also stand a pretty fair chance of losing my permit as an "unsuitable" person.
Why look for trouble?
I'm carrying legally. I've been carrying legally for nearly 15 years - meaning that I have kept my behavior beyond reproach for that entire time. I will continue to carry legally as long as I am permitted (pun intended).
I'm not about to take the chance of a fragile person calling the cops because I extend the courtesy of sharing my weapon-carrying status.
IOW, DADT.
Mike W: Property owners should be exposed to more liability if they have disarmed patrons. The obvious corollary is also true--If they do not restrict, and I choose to take responsibility for my own safety by going armed, their responsibility should be less.
This is the best balance between property rights and CYA restrictions.
...and Jay's extra issues with living in a may-issue state tip the balance even farther against notifying the host.
When going through the class for an Alaskan Concealed Carry permit, one of the teaching points was that you must have the permission of the homeowner if you enter while carrying.
Looking through the AK statutes just now, I am no longer able to find this statute.
Now I have to do some research and see if it has been repealed or not.
The discussion during my class was much like what we have here, the main question being "...if one spouse invites you in and knows that you are carrying, and the other spouse says you have to go, are you obligated to leave? Courtesy would indicate yes, and let the householders sort it out amongst themselves, with you out of the picture."
Hunter
Ketchikan, Alaska
jimbob86 said...
...and if you find yourself discussing your undergarments on the first date, and she does not bolt, RUN. You don't want any of that.
Are you kidding me? that's the kind of girl every guy wants to date:P
-Just use a ...
"Or, dont even mention it. It's such a non issue. (in fact in PRM, it will probably go over poorly for you - and worse for Mrs G as any bad press may be reflected in her paycheck or lack thereof)"
Not sure what Mrs. G's paycheck has to do with bad press, but... ;)
Sorry, to clarify - Specifically that her coworkers would know that you are a gun nut.
And no, you are not a reasonable gun owner - you are a gun nut simply because you entered a room and promptly announced your status as such :)
Absolutely NOT TRUE!!!!
Bestiality is far more accepted in Mass. than CCW. ;-)
***
All joking aside, I've been under the understanding. You don't tell, they don't ask. And if an issue arises, than you politely state your case and if they ask you to leave - you do so, in a gentlmenly or ladylike fashion.
My humble opinion:
it is the right and purview of a homeowner to know if guests are coming armed. In many areas of the Volksrepublik of MA, the only guns many citizens see are the big, scary ones carried by movie villians.
Will the people at a party interact with your gun? 99.999% won't. But you bring it for that off-chance encounter (at a party, before a party, or after a party) where someone threatens your life (or Mrs G's). Would you use deadly force (on someone else's property where you are a guest) if needed? I would. But that host can be sued for your actions. (Prosecutor: "Host, why were you inviting armed citizens to come to your house to consume alcohol?")
There are other "unintended" interactions with your firearm -- a guest sees it and wants to start a conversation (fine), a guest sees it and freaks out (not so fine), a juvenile guest sees it and thinks it would be cool to grab it (red alert).
In most cases, I side with the sovereignty of the citizen - what you pack is your business. But the homeowner's sovereignty must be respected, too. I believe that puts on onus on the bearer to get permission from the homeowner, or leave the hardware at home (or car).
I absolutely agree that a homeowner gets to say they don't want anyone carrying on their property. However, no one here has suggested they go against stated wishes.
Admittedly, I'm coming at this from perhaps a different point of view than many of the other commenters. In Texas, I assume the other person is armed unless I'm told otherwise (providing, of course, that we're somewhere it's allowed) or know otherwise. It's not such a slam-dunk, of course, and it is a bit stereotypical, but we do love our guns here and many carry them.
So while I support the property owner's right to restrict guns in their home...It seems to me to make more sense for the homeowner to be the one to say "No guns" than for the guest to say "Mind if I'm packing heat?"
My question is, "Why haven't you taken this person to the range already?" Okay, I'm more of a hermit than you are, so any home I visit I know will respect my right to CCW. And I should get out more, I know. So if I would, perchance, enter a home of doubtful gunnyness, I'd leave the real stuff in the vehicle and and pray I wouldn't need to use the NAA .22r mini-revolver mingling with my pocket change.
As a former Mass resident, I know it's against the law to leave your firearm unattended in the car, so you can't simply put it in the glovebox during the party. And we're not talking about drinking while we are carrying, I hope. That would bring the lawyers running. Not sure what to do in this case.
With the exception of one great friend who's wife does not like guns I carry everywhere I know I can. If I go to someone's house I carry and don't say anything. Though, I open carry around town sometimes and have been kicked out of several places. That's their loss though...
--Doug
Libertyman, that is no longer correct - you CAN leave your unloaded gun locked in a secure container in your car now. Specifically NOT your glovebox, but the trunk works...
As for carrying at my friends' house... they all know I own guns, they all know I shoot, they all know I carry at LEAST a knife anywhere I go... I'm not going to throw it in their faces that yes, I'm carrying a gun. If any of them ever tells me specifically that their house is a gun-free zone, I'll comply... but I won't ask in advance.
Sorry, Chris... silence implies consent.
I'm with Chris on this one. I inform every home owner as I enter their house. I take this in the same vain as a knight removing a long sword as he entered a residence, or a cowboy removing a gun belt. Its just common courtesy... when I have someone over I always allow them to carry but I DO like to know about. I also prefer that people carrying in my home don't consume copious amounts of alcohol. Call me paranoid if you want but I feel that that's reasonable. My rule of thumb is that I don't mix anything that can kill me with alcohol.
I also currently rent a house and informed my landlord before we signed the lease that I am an avid duck hunter and there will be firearms in the house. My particular landlord was appreciative of my honesty, said thanks for telling me, and that was the last we talked about the issue.
Stay armed and don't tell anyone...They'll be thanking you if you have to put down some rabid dog that's attacking one of them.
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