Wednesday, May 6, 2009

Size Matters...

In the comments to last Friday's gun pr0n, agg79 asked the following question:
I've been debating getting a 21 or 22 but had not considered the compact versions. What is your opinion over full sized verses compact?

And while I posted a quick response,
Realistically, I can't see any significant difference between the full size and the subcompact as far as shootability goes.

The weight difference is only something like 4-5 ounces, so perceived recoil really isn't going to change much.

Barrel length is only another 1-1.5" longer - it's not like you're talking about the difference between a 1 7/8" snubbie and an 8 3/8" target revolver.

The biggest difference is the grip - the subcompacts only allow for a two-finger hold (like a J-frame) whereas it's all three fingers on a full-size. This can be overcome somewhat by the extensions, although it starts defeating the purpose of the smaller grip.

I quickly realized that the response merited a post all its own.




I figured I'll start by giving a quick overview of the grip and overall sizes currently available. For this purpose, I'll use Smith & Wesson for revolvers and Glock for semi-automatics. These two manufacturers offer the widest variety of grip/frame sizes and are pretty universally known - even in the Volksrepublik of MA...

For S&W revolvers, there are four sizes currently offered: The mongo sized X-frame monsters like the 500 S&W Magnum and the 460 are the largest revolvers available, offering 5 rounds of dumptruck-stopping calibers in a nearly five pound handgun; the N-framed guns were the largest until the X-frame came along; these are the 6-round big bores and 8-round .357 Magnum handguns; the L-frames, which are the medium sized revolvers offering 6 or 7 rounds of centerfire ammo or up to 10 rounds of .22LR; and the J-frame, the most common of which is the five-shot .38 special "snubnosed" revolvers.

The X- and N- frames are simply too large and heavy for the vast majority of folks to consider for concealed carry. Yes, there are people that happily carry a 4" barreled 629 IWB all day long; however, it's far more common to see a J-frame than an N for a CCW piece. The L-frames (and the K-frames the L-frames replaced) were commonly used as duty guns for police agencies. These are concealable in the smallest configurations (2½" and 3" configurations with round-butt grip). Even the lightest L-frame tips the scales at over 24 ounces. The J-frame is the smallest and lightest variants, with the airweight versions in .38 Special and .357 Magnum weighing under a pound and rated for +P ammo. The lightest of the airweights checks in at a scant 12 ounces, empty, making it eminently carryable.

On the semi-auto front, Glock offers three different sizes: Full-size, compact, and sub-compact. The full-size variants (17 for 9mm, 22 for .40 S&W, and 21 for .45 ACP) are the heaviest (~ 26 ounces) with the largest grips (full three finger) and 4.5" barrels. These are most commonly "duty guns" for law enforcement. The sub-compact versions (26/27/30 for 9mm/.40S&W/.45ACP) are lightest (under 20 ounces) and have the shortest barrel length (3.5") with only a two-finger grip (although there are extensions that go on the magazines). The compact models (19 for 9mm and 23 for .40 S&W, no compact model for .45 ACP) are right in the middle, weighing in at 21 ounces with a 4" barrel.




Some manufacturers - like Smith & Wesson with their new M&P line - offer simply the sub-compact and full sized sidearms. There's generally not a terribly big difference between the two sizes:

Full size M&P:
Length: 7½"
Weight: 24 oz.
Barrel length: 4¼"
Capacity: 17 rounds 9mm

Compact M&P:
Length: 6.7"
Weight: 21.7 oz.
Barrel length: 3.5"
Capacity: 12 rounds 9mm

So there's not an awful lot of difference between the full-size and the compact, really - you save less than an inch of overall length, a little over 2 ounces in weight, and lose a whopping 0.75" on the barrel, all at the expense of 5 rounds capacity.

I have the predecessor to the M&P, the SW99, in both configurations. I've carried and shot both sizes extensively, and, realistically, there's no difference between the two as far as accuracy, perceived recoil, or controllability. The compact model is easier to carry, in that the smaller grip means less printing overall. Given that there's no discernable functional difference between the two, I see no advantage to the full-sized version whatsoever.

As far as wheelguns go, the difference between the two sizes is sharper - for the paltry 2 round advantage of the larger "L" frame, the extra weight, grip size, and overall length make the larger gun much harder to conceal. The smaller J-frames, however, offer significantly more perceived recoil and are not particularly fun to shoot for any length of time. It's a definitive trade-off, with the light weight of the snubbie offering one advantage over all the other guns listed: it can be carried in one's pocket. Sure, it's a little harder to master shooting a .357 Magnum snubbie, but when you can have 5 rounds of .357 Magnum at your disposal, that's a tradeoff worth making.

In summary: For the semi-auto or the revolver, the smaller/smallest frame guns are easier to carry. The semi-autos don't seem to see much difference in accuracy or recoil between the full-size and compact guns; the difference is far more pronounced in the revolver side. For the experienced gunnie, the smaller guns are a better fit; for a novice, though, better to have the extra heft for recoil and the longer barrel for accuracy - a gun you don't shoot because it's physically painful or too inaccurate doesn't do anybody any good.

The bottom line here goes against the American grain a bit - smaller is better.

That is all.

6 comments:

agg79 said...

Thanks for expanding the details.
I don't have an armory like yours, but I have a S&W 3914 I bought off of the SIL many years back. It is a sweet little 9mm with an 8+1 capacity that I think makes for a good carry piece, but I amlooking for something with a slightly larger carbon footprint and higher capacity. I appreciate the unbiased, up front lesson on frames size. Perhaps that would make for a good range lesson or topic on Gun Nuts?

Bitmap said...

I've found that when carrying IWB the butt size and length is more important than the barrel length. When carrying a full-size 1911 the barrel length never bothered me but a shorter Commander-size (or whatever it's called these days) makes a much bigger difference.

I also find that if you have a good, heavy, stiff belt that is actually designed and intended to carry a gun that the weight of the gun matters much less. A thin, wimpy belt that lets the gun sag is a nightmare and very uncomfortable.

I'm with you thinking that the sub-compact semi-autos are not that much harder to shoot well than the longer barreled models, except that the shorter sight radius makes them harder to shoot well, especially for inexperienced shooters.

Jay G said...

agg79,

I'll put my plug in for the Glock G30. Either 9+1 (flush mag) or 10+1 (with finger rest) capacity, and it will accept the 13 round G21 mags (which can be extended to 15 rounds with a Pierce grip extender).

There's even a spacer for the G21 mag that makes the G30 look like it has a freakishly large grip...

bitmap,

Excellent point - it's the stubbier grip that makes the gun easier to conceal (a point I tried to make in my post, but should have expanded on, so thanks for bringing it up!)

It's a Hobson's choice, to be certain - if the grip is large, the gun is easier to control while shooting; however it's harder to conceal.

As for shooting, well, of course it's all relative, but I shoot both SW99s and the G30 about the same - under rapid fire, I can keep all 10 rounds to a ~ 5" circle - COM. Slow, controlled fire doesn't tend to tighten things up all that much - I can't wring Gold Cup or S&W Model 17 level accuracy out of any of them no matter what I try...

Wally said...

I'll throw my 2c into this one. I've got glocks in all sizes.

If you are planning to carry concealed, I find the guns with the shorter grips hide easier. If you go for the smallest of the glocks (26,27,33) , you are left with only two fingers to grasp the gun. A lot of folks combat that with using a larger magazine or a magazine with a finger rest on the front of it. If you are going to bother with a lengthened magazine, you may as well just step up a framesize to the midsize (19,23,32). It gives you a real grip that is no longer than the extended mags of the smaller one, and you get a little more barrel length and sight radius.


I have carried a G23 or G32 everyday for 5+ years and it's invisible IWB. I have a G33 but it is reserved only for bad days (ankle). The G31 is reserved for time hiking in the woods when concealment is less of an issue.



Oh and for years I really hated glocks. Still do, but the buggers are reliable, soulless tools. Did I say reliable? And I love their universal trigger setup too.

Weer'd Beard said...

Well two other factors you didn't mention.

We were talking about it at hilltop, but a short lenth of barrel makes a HUGE difference in the loudness of the report. It's a minor issue as in Self Defense I don't think it'll make much difference, but it does make a snubbier barrel a lot more obnoxious on the firing line.

Also I carry my 1911 Commander in a horizontal shoulder holster (Galco Miami Classic II if you care...I recomend!) and in this holster grip lenth is not a factor at all, but gun width and barrel lenth ARE.

So the Commander (Shorter barrel, same size grip) conceals VERY well, but I still have 8+1 Rounds of .45 ACP at my beck-and-call, as well as a full 3-finger grip.

Also I put a set of Chip McCormick Slimline grips on this puppy and it not only vanishes under a simple flanel shirt but it digs into my ribs less durring the day.

AnarchAngel said...

The L frame did not replace the K frame. There are still a number of Kframe revolvers in production.

There is a VERY slight difference in the frame sizes. Generally holsters will cross fit, but tightly molded ones may not.

I have a whole writeup on it from a few years back titled JKLNX