Just one thing to consider, WRT the "43 states"...There are, technically, no laws specifically banning open carry in the state of Massachusetts. If you have an unrestricted Class A LTC, you would be completely within the law to go to the mall with a handgun openly displayed on your belt. Now, chances are pretty good that you'd find yourself with a knee in your throat and/or several police handguns or SWAT carbines aimed at your melon within seconds of entering a populated area, but you would be legal.
*Technically* there are no laws against open carrying in Massachusetts. If you go to any of the pro-OC sites you will see MA listed as "allowing" open carry.
While this is technically accurate, I would not recommend it unless you have an acquired taste for asphalt.
Packetman sent me an e-mail with a thought exercise (and in a follow-up points me to his post on the subject):
Is there not a relatively friendly area in MA where activists could get the DA to acknowledge that OC is legal, then go to the sheriff and make him aware that if prones out any elderly folks (or anyone else) who OC that he risks civil rights charges? I'm sure you know some LE types - ask them what they would do and what they would charge someone with for OC.There are several factors at play here. First off, while there are no laws specifically outlawing open carry, there's still plenty that you could be charged with should you face an overzealous DA. Creating a public disturbance. Brandishing. Assault (remember, this is MA - I'm sure someone would wet their pants at the sight of a firearm being carried by a non-Only One). Secondly, while you may very well be acquitted of any charges, you're going to need to retain legal counsel while you appeal and fight the arrest - the age-old "You might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride." And, lastly, the 800 pound gorilla in the fight, our old friend "suitability".
And then plan and execute an OC situation whereby an elderly gentleman is filmed going about his business while armed? Someone in good physical condition (perhaps ex-law inforcement?).
I don't know how bad the obstacles are up there (I'm sure they're formidable), just trying to get outside the box. I've heard you say great things about the state organization. Why not poke the bear?!
Get arrested for
Lose your permit, lose your guns - in MA, you have to be licensed to simply own a firearm. It is a felony to possess any type of firearm without a permit in the state of Massachusetts - and for the vast majority of arms (pointedly including the weapons most similar to those carried by our armed forces), that permit can be denied for any reason as detailed above. If your permit is revoked, your guns must be turned over immediately (like in a 209A restraining order, except that the cops don't have to come to your house for a revoked permit). Legally you cannot possess so much as a single piece of brass without a permit of some kind, so if your Class A LTC was revoked, you would have to have every single gun, cartridge, or ammunition component removed from your domicile immediately to be in compliance with the law.
Could the law be challenged? Certainly. Someone with an extensive legal background, ties to the 2A community, and a bank account rivaling that of Bill Gates could certainly make things unpleasant for the locals. It would most likely take years to get through the courts, and in the end, you might even get your permit back. But for the vast majority of us, we're not willing to take that risk over an abstract concept (to MAholes) like open carry. Even 2A friendly states like New Hampshire and Tennessee have had cases where people openly carrying have been targeted by the police; in a state like MA that is openly hostile to guns and gun owners in general, it's asking for a world of hurt.
Liberty is messy. Freedom isn't free. Rights, if left unexercised, atrophy just like muscles. But there are precious few willing to risk everything - almost literally - to push that envelope. Especially where, in a nanny state like MA, the end result could very well be that the 90% Democrat-controlled MA legislature simply passes a bill outlawing open carry. GOAL is very good; they've worked insanely hard to hold back the floodwaters of gun control bills; it's staffed by some of the most determined, dedicated, and knowledgeable individuals I've had the pleasure of meeting. But they're vastly outnumbered and outspent by the power of the MA nanny state when it comes to pushing stupid gun laws - and most of the time, they still prevail.
The jury is out, though, as to whether they'd be up for the herculean task of defending an open carry case...
That is all.
34 comments:
I am not buying it. While you might be correct that it is a tougher situation in MA, I was told the same thing about CT. And we are making it happen here. I OC everywhere I go here, in the past 8 months I had 1 arrest that was immediately dismissed and the PD will be paying for, and 1 detainment that was not even lawful.
No SWAT teams, no proning out, no doomsday.
As citizens of this great country, sometimes we have to take chances and stand up against oppressors. That is what we all should have leaned from our forefathers. The police don't make the laws, they can only enforce the ones that exist, and they must do so in a uniform fashion.
Always question authority.
I'd just like to point out that there's no such crime as 'brandishing' in MA. In this case I pretty much agree with your analysis. If it wasn't something that I already thought through though, I tend to dismiss the legal reasoning of anyone who says someone could be charged with 'brandishing', since it says they learned the law from gunshop commandos rather than an attorney or reading the law themselves.
@zeeke:
Not to mention that there is absolutely no way that the word 'brandishing' applies to the carrying of a firearm openly in a holster.
This is MA. Anything is possible.
Zeeke, remember the Girard case. Dude was held for, what, like 4-6 months in jail, no bail, no hearing, because he had a police baton and a tear gas grenade? If that?
*NOTHING* would surprise me here WRT firearms, PSH, and the lengths to which an overzealous anti-gun DA might go to put away a gun owner who dared buck the status quo...
Especially if it's around re-election time...
Oh, I agree with you. Even an overzealous DA can't make up a law though. They have to mis/over-apply an existing one. Drop the word brandishing and I think you're exactly right.
Jay,
While I cannot speak for MA, and I certainly defer to your experience and knowledge on your state, and with all due respect, I hear this same stuff all the time in CT. Even while I am OCing and there is no panic, no SWAT team, no black helicopters.
The movement has to start somewhere and it has to start sometime.
Most people cannot believe OC is legal and not a big issue in CT when practiced, but it is happening and we have to keep pushing. You are correct that they will try and make the law to fill that 'loophole' that allowed you to do it previously, but even if the win, they fail. Once those laws are put in place and successfully challenged, they can go away forever.
We have authorities in California and Wisconsin telling the citizens that they don't need CCW, because they can already [U]OC, and that is a safer way to have their subjects.
But here on the east coast, people tell us we have to conceal because OC is the dangerous way to carry.
So which is it? Why the disparity?
Why do citizens accept the idea that police and government officials that work for them are enforcing laws that don't exist and abusing their power under color of law?
Why not report this abuse to the FBI and work with them to make the citizens safe against these abusers of power? Why not get the community together to fund litigation for the first time someone is pinched under this abuse of power?
Sitting idly by keeps us on the defensive and it results in lost rights. We cannot wait for the NRA or SAF to ride in on a white horse and save us, we have to keep the fight coming to them in every direction and at all times.
"The jury is out, though, as to whether they'd be up for the herculean task of defending an open carry case..."
Probably just need to call your NRA rep for the help you nee ..... oh, wait.
I was "detained" in a cruiser for 3 hours in a state far more friendly than MA. Upon release the cops told me to get a carry permit, stay concealed, and dont ask dont tell. One Sgt called my local chief to pave the way for the permit, and it was granted rapidly.
Met with the head of the police union in this state and OC came up. He said that if someone reported you for OC - even though it is legal - they would respond to a call from a concerned citizen. And since OC is not a very common sight, his exact words were "you will not go away unmolested".
If Packetman wants to try OC in MA, I'd offer up the $100 for the cost of the MA NR LTC *and* out of the kindness of my heart, I'd send some oatmeal cookies to what ever correctional insttiution he ended up in.
@Wally: Did you ask the head of the police union what crime they would be investigating should they molest you?
Terry stops require suspicion of a crime. What crime would OC present in MA?
@RichB: He said they would be responding to the call of a concerned citizen, not to a report of violation of the law.
I am not much of a lawyer, but I'd imagine it is like when the cops show up at my house for noise complaints from the neighbors, then tell me I am fine to proceed with what I am doing.
"I'd imagine it is like when the cops show up at my house for noise complaints from the neighbors, then tell me I am fine to proceed with what I am doing."
Not really. In the case of a noise complaint, they would be responding to a report of a crime (violation of the noise ordinance, a town law, or perhaps "disturbing the peace").
A report of a "man with a gun" when it's simple open carry is not a report of a crime unless some other action that is illegal - such as brandishing - is also reported. Usually, they will send an officer anyway, just to make sure, but if you're simply going about your business he has nothing to give him a "reasonable articulable suspicion" that a crime has taken place. Several courts (in several states, I believe) have ruled that, where OC is legal, simply carrying a holstered gun openly is not enough to create the reasonable articulable suspicion which is required for a Terry stop.
Re OC in MA: I would submit that it would be better to first attack MA's licensing scheme and at least knock down both the requirement for a license to own and the arbitrary qualifications for a LTC, before tackling the issue of open carry. At the least, it should reduce the risk to whoever has to get themselves arrested to gain standing to file the suit to something that won't land them in prison for 5 to 10 years.
@Wally: Then what is the concern? If they don't detain or arrest you, all is well, right?
I agree with Jake. Discretionary ownership licensing is by far the biggest gun rights issue in MA. It's pretty clearly unconstitutional in light of McDonald, so it should be pretty straightforward. Until that's resolved, OC doesn't even register as an issue IMO.
@Rich - Detain isn't typically pleasurable. 3 Hours in a cruiser getting my balls busted and accused of a unlicensed CCW, A&B, and attempted kidnapping <> fun.
(tangent: Wally's carry rule #2 - don't carry a unique gun, because inevitabley, some thug has one just like it!)
Noise complaints? Yeah that's a little more social as I know all the deputies in my area. "Hey Wally, Jody called again for noise, whatchoo shooting today"
I don't care if you OC, it doesn't bother me - but you may not find a lot of support in the system for it. Perhaps try watching the Top Gear where they drive bombers through the south, and get pelted with rocks. They didn't do anything wrong, just ran afoul of the local climate....
@Wally:
You just got done saying that they would not detain you. I asked what the problem would be then.
Where is the confusion?
I hear everyday that you cannot OC in New England because everyone will panic and/or everyone will call the police. I will ask you the same as I will ask anyone else that tells me this.
Where is the factual evidence for this?
I OC just about everyday and everywhere I can legally right here in CT. The fact is that the panic propaganda is simply not reality. Most people either don't notice the G23 in Desantis thumb break scabbard on my side, or they simply don't care.
Where is your wealth of data supporting your claim that OCing will make the natives restless?
@Rich : WTF ? I said I was detained. LE said CCW was better for everyone, DADT. They even called my CLEO to speed the CCW permit along.
Walk by my house or shop while OC and we can judge the police response.
Rich, the NH AG had to send out a letter reminding NH Police Chiefs that OC was legal.
There was at least one incident in a Manchester bookstore where a patron who was OC'ing wound up receiving a full felony stop because someone panicked and called the cops with a "man with a gun" call.
We had a guy here in MA lose his permit to carry because the wind caught his jacket and exposed his holstered revolver in front of a police officer.
There are examples; certainly not an epidemic (nor am I claiming such) but enough such that I am not willing to risk being able to *own* firearms at all over open carry.
I agree with Jake that we need to remove the "license needed to own" part of MA licensing long before we worry about open carry.
@Wally: You are not reading the history of the comments correctly then.
Threatening fellow 2A supporters with police intervention is not productive, nor would you reporting a fellow law abiding citizen.
Might as well be a "Man with a ham sandwich" call.
When the state requires a FIREARMS license just to legally buy pepper spray, and requires a non-resident to get a non-resident LTC just to legally carry pepper spray legally purchased in the owner's home state....yes, you could say the problem is the licensing scheme could use an overhaul. As a former MA resident (born and raised) attempting to OC is a really good way to spend time getting to know your local cops.
@JayG: I agree these things happen, they happen all over the country and for every reason under the sun.
That does not mean we should all live in fear of being wrongfully detained or arrested. Nor does it mean that MA is in any way shape or form special in this regard.
The only 'problem' with OC in MA is that there is no one (that I am aware of) getting out there and taking up the cause.
good grief did I forget to proof read or what, sorry about the disjointed sentences!
@Ruth: Can I ask what evidence your assertion that OC will equal police attention is based on? That is certainly not my experience, and I am in CT which is thought of as very similar WRT firearms.
Also, is getting to know LEOs a bad thing?
RichB,
The difference is, in other areas of the country, once the cops let you go that's the end of it.
I'll dig up the link later, but that story I referenced happened here in MA - a guy was out getting a pizza, and while he was out walking, the wind blew his coat open. A cop passing by caught sight of his holstered firearm, stopped him - not even an arrest or anything - but word got back to the guy's CoP and he lost his license.
When you lose your LTC in MA, you have to surrender your firearms - *ALL* firearms - immediately or become a felon. You lose all handguns and large capacity semi-automatic rifles forever; you can apply for an FID for shotguns and bolt-action rifles.
I'm not going to risk it to prove a point. Maybe that makes me a coward. Maybe I am a coward. But I'll tell you what. I'm not about to lose the Colt Official Police revolver that my grandfather carried as a town cop because I wanted to make a point. I'm not about to leave my family defenseless because I wanted to make a point. I'm not going to give up recreational shooting because I wanted to make a point.
There's too much at stake for a MA resident with the permitting system as it stands now, at least IMHO.
Rich, where in CT do you regularly OC? I don't know CT that well, but in MA there's definitely significant geographic variation. If I OC'd in my town near the NH border, I doubt much would happen. If I OC'd in to my girlfriend's office building in downtown Boston, I'd expect consequences.
In CT, can someone force you to sell all of your guns at the stroke of a pen with almost no legal oversight? That's the situation in MA, and that's why no one is "getting out there and taking up the cause."
Sorry, I mis-spoke, they can force you to sell all of your handguns and 'large capacity' long guns. They can force you to get rid of the rest until you get an FID. Still, the point remains.
@Jay G: Understand that I have not once asked you to OC personally or advocated it for your circumstances. I respect your right to carry (or not carry) however you wish.
But keep in mind that everything you are saying are things we have been told over and over in CT. Now we are peeling that abuse back and making this state safe for law abiding citizens.
Baby steps...
@zeek: I am not aware of any real significant differences between MA and CT. People are people all the same. I OC all over the state, and in every environment that is legal here.
Losing your permit here would be devastating as well, although I don't believe it would effect your long guns (although stranger things have happened).
@Rich_Quixote_de_la_mancha,
I didn't threaten anything. Just saying THOSE AREAS are not exactly OC friendly and you'll raise an eyebrow - which in a small town causes things to go downhill rapidly.
There are plenty of places that I'd happily OC in this state, just not all of them.
Not sure where you got the chip on your shoulder, and don't let me stop you from your OC crusade. Most humble apologies that I couldn't constructively add to your rant.
I'd like to point out that for Illinois both CCW and OC are prohibited. No possibility of getting a permit for either. So in this case MA is ahead of us. Illinoisans aren't even allowed to carry a knife longer than 3". We are prohibited from having any useful/ready self-defense tools on our person in public once we leave our own property.
Just to play the devil's advocate here, I'll mention something that hasn't been brought up here yet.
BECAUSE of people like Rich OCing in CT, the state is proposing changing the law to outlaw OC. Of course the new law would be so restrictive that if anyone even correctly guessed you were concealed carrying you could go to jail. Forget about accidental flashing like Jay's example. Actual proposed law located here (pdf)
Summary of Proposal
This new law would require that a pistol or revolver be carried concealed. With certain exceptions for peace officer, parole officers, corrections officers of this state and other states while engaged in official duties as well as federal marshals, agents, armed forces and licensed armed security guards in pursuit of their duties. Also included are the penalties for violations of this act.
Reason for Proposal
Connecticut's firearms carry laws are vague in language as it pertains to carrying a pistol or revolver concealed. Recently, citizens have taken it upon themselves to test our statutes by carrying openly. In doing so, several arrests have been made under the Breach of Peace statues C.G.S. 53a-181, with those dispositions ending in nolle's or dismissal, proving that these laws are inadequate in their detail. It is clear that there is a necessity for a concealed firearm law with more detail or, consequently, Connecticut may end up being a state where they carry exposed at all times as decided by case law.
Significant Fiscal Impacts Municipal: None Federal: None State: Penalties would benefit the general fund.
(NEW) CARRYING A PISTOL OR REVOLVER CONCEALED. Definitions. Penalties.
Exceptions.
(a) Any person carrying a pistol or revolver, pursuant to the provision of section 29-35, shall conceal such pistol or revolver.
(b) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to the carrying of any pistol or revolver by any parole officer or peace officer or a uniformed corrections officer of this state, or parole officer or peace officer of any other state while engaged in the pursuit of official duties, or federal marshal or federal law enforcement agent, or to any member of the armed forces of the United States, as defined by section 27-103, or of this state, as defined by section 27-2, when on duty or going to or from duty, or a uniformed armed security officer licensed to carry a pistol or revolver while engaged in the performance of their official duties.
(c) Concealed pistol or revolver means a firearm, that is a pistol or revolver that is covered or enclosed in any manner that an observer cannot determine that it is a handgun without removing it from that which covers or encloses it or without opening, lifting, or removing that which covers or encloses it. However, concealed handgun does not include a shotgun or rifle.
(d) Any person who violates any provision of subsection (a) of this section shall: (1) for conviction of a first offense, be fined not less than five hundred dollars or more than two . thousand dollars, and (b) be imprisoned not more than one year; and (2) for a subsequent conviction of this offense (a) be fined not less than two thousand dollars or more than five thousand dollars, and (b) be imprisoned not more than five years.
@mopar: They have been proposing that for years and failing.
@Rich. In previous years they didn't have a new head of DPS, a new AG who helped write the current state AWB, and a new governor who is also a member of MAIG.
@mopar: So what does that mean? Do you propose that the citizens of CT should hide for the next two years?
The law is already on our side, the DPS hasn't got a leg to stand on. If the law is passed, so be it, it will just be a different arena to fight in.
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