.22LR primary?
She has tried a variety of full-sized centerfire handguns - 4" .357 Magnums (with .38 Special loaded), Government-size 1911s, even a Sig P226 in 9mm. She didn't like the recoil in any of the centerfire handguns, preferring the light recoil of rimfire guns. Shooting the centerfire guns was an unpleasant experience for her, the recoil of even a light .38 Special proving to be too punishing for her to shoot for any length of time.
Naturally, this presents a conundrum. The Mosquito fulfills one of the rules of surviving a gunfight - have a gun - but fails at another - bring enough gun. Few would argue that .22LR is a sufficient self-defense round - good points have been made about the general unreliability (compared to centerfire) of the rimfire round itself as well as the general lack of stopping power. The flip side to the argument, of course, is that a hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .44...
I can see both sides of the argument. I certainly wouldn't stake my life on a .22LR - even being able to put a whole bunch of rounds in a critical area isn't going to match the power imparted by a .357 Magnum or a .45 ACP (or a 9mm +P for that matter). Even if we don't consider the differences in ignition method (there's a reason we have more than 1 round and practice malfunction drills), the ability of the .22LR round itself to impart sufficient force to the target to stop the thread is vastly inferior to most every other centerfire round larger than .25ACP.
Having the gun - any gun - though is better than nothing. Many confrontations are avoided completely without a firearm ever clearing leather - the confidence of knowing that you can handle a situation should it arise clearly marks you as "not prey". Even in cases where the goblin misses the signs, often the mere sight of the firearm is enough to end the assault. In the dark it's awfully hard to tell a .22LR muzzle from a 9mm muzzle, and very few goblins are brave enough to risk finding out the difference. Not to mention we haven't found anyone willing to take a .22LR round just to show how weak it is.
It's the 0.0001% that we're concerned about - in the event that the goblin chooses the assault anyway and isn't dissuaded by the display of the firearm, it will be even more critical that the ability of the chosen caliber to end the threat be sufficient. Perhaps 5 or 6 well-aimed rounds of .22LR will be enough to dissuade our theoretical goblin - but if it's not, or those well-aimed rounds aren't so well-aimed in the heat of the moment - are we willing to bet our life on it?
My advice in this situation is to carry whatever she's comfortable with right now. There are two different issues at the moment: first, getting her to start carrying a defensive arm - any defensive arm. Any gun is better than no gun (with a few notable exceptions not germane to this discussion); starting the process of getting used to being the "death beast" as James puts it is a good thing regardless of what's being carried. The second issue - finding a gun that's chambered in a serious caliber that B can handle safely and confidently - can happen as she's carrying the Mosquito.
Thoughts, comments, suggestions on carrying a .22 for self-defense or alternate suggestions?
That is all.
32 comments:
You say she was uncomfortable with centerfires, "for any length of time." Could she shoot the 226 at all? If so, a 9mm 226 or 229 with a .22 conversion kit for practice would be ideal for her situation.
Being that the worst-case scenario requires some oomph from the tool, I'm just not sold on .22 LR for carry.
If there's nothing else she'll carry, give her the .22. Rule 1: Have a gun.
It may well be that as time goes on, and she practices, she may become used to recoil and will be able to step up to a serious caliber. I remember many years ago when I first started thinking that a .44 magnum was too much gun and I'd never own one... now? I shoot a .44 for pin shoots all the time and enjoy it.
But for now, anything is better than nothing.
WV= "duckso". Need to make up a good definition for that word... it's too good a word to let go.
Full-weight (NOT polymer frame) pistol in .32ACP, maybe? Thinking specifically Beretta Tomcat, Walther PPK or Mauser HsC.
Has she tried .380? Sig makes a beautiful .380 pocket gun. It is Single Action Only, so I don't know if she's comfortable with cocked and locked. Ruger and KAHR make DAO offerings.
I'm not big on the "as long as it starts with .4" mentality, being a 9mm guy myself, but .22 is pushing it. At that point I'd get her a taser or mace.
.22 beats harsh language any day. That being said it might be nice to strive for a bit more.
I may have to arrange a range trip with my CZ-82 in tow. Its a neat little gun, and Horady makes defensive loads for it that greatly increases their defensive viability.
And unlike many of the offerings mentioned, if she knows somebody with a C&R FFL they're damn easy (and cheap) to get in-state.
How concealable does this need to be? Would a heavier gun that can soak up some recoil be practical?
Woodsman's idea of a .22 conversion for practice and full sized load for carry has merit. It's not like civilians (or even LEOs) have to draw a weapon every day. When they do, choosing between recoil and surrender (and whatever unpleasantness that may lead to) doesn't seem like such a hard choice.
Weer'd's suggestion of a CZ-82 brings up some options. 9mm Makarov compares to a hot .380 load, but even a lighter .380 would punch harder than the .22. (I don't recommand 9mm Mak in a P-64 though. It's a cheap but serviceable weapon but mine barks hard.)
The thing to rememeber is that nothing we carry makes surviving a goblin encounter a sure thing. We can tilt the odds in our favor, but the biggest advantage comes from just having a weapon in the first place.
Two points.
1. If she carries a .22LR, load it with CCI Velocitor hollowpoints. They're full-weight for caliber, giving them better penetration than the Stinger-type lightweight hollowpoints, and the rim of the hollow point will dig in on the skull rather than ricochet off at an angle.
2. A better choice is the Kel-Tec PMR30. It's .22 WMR caliber, which delivers better energy than a .32 ACP. It's still not great, but it's a whole lot better than .22LR - and the single-action trigger on the PMR30 is very good (at least on the examples I've handled). It's got a 30-round magazine, too, so one can do a decent job of ventilating someone who needs it.
That's my $0.02 worth, anyway.
A .22 on the body is better than a .45 in the safe.
I'd look into some premium .22 ammo to avoid the classic crap .22 fail to ignite. Hornady and CCI would be good places to start.
I agree with Peter to look into the PMR-30 if they ever get their issues solved with it (tumbling bullets).
.22 WMR is probably much more effective from a pistol barrel vs a .22LR of the same length.
Also, what about 5.7x28?
We love our "Skeeter" but use it as a training tool. It is still new enough to FTE and Stovepipe fairly often. Rack and keep rolling is good training. I would second the thought of .22WMR as an option for your shooter. There are some serius defense loads for it on the market nowdays so it may be what she needs. There are a few autoloader but lots of choice in revolvers. Quite light recoil but kinda noisy.
"A better choice is the Kel-Tec PMR30. It's .22 WMR caliber, which delivers better energy than a .32 ACP. It's still not great, but it's a whole lot better than .22LR - and the single-action trigger on the PMR30 is very good (at least on the examples I've handled). It's got a 30-round magazine, too, so one can do a decent job of ventilating someone who needs it.
That's my $0.02 worth, anyway."
Peter, you're not from these parts, are you?
The PMR-30 violates the MA Assault Weapons Ban and is not on the EOPS list of approved firearms that are "safe enough" for subjects of Marxachusetts. Thank you for playing.
Although a used 4" AutoMag II in .22WMR might fit the bill...
My wife carries a Beretta Bobcat 21a in 22 LR that I bought for her, so I think you can see where I stand on this one.
At first, she was .22 only and can now handle a mid to full size 9mm. She is tiny, however and can't carry one concealed. A Tomcat in .32 may come down the road and she may carry it if she likes it, but there is no rush.
Anyway, my point: Seven plus one rounds of CCI Mini-Mags follow my wife through 24 hours of her day. At this point, there is nothing else that will do it. Have a gun is fulfilled and, in my opinion, the rest is simply your proverbial angels dancing on the head of a pin. Penetration, expansion, and "enough gun" only come into play if you have a gun in the fight to begin with.
Thanks for the suggestions and ideas everyone!
The P226 or 229 with the .22LR conversion isn't a bad idea - and I have the P226 with both the 9mm and .22LR slides so she can try it out.
The problem with the 32 ACP is that a modern gun will by design be tiny, and while the 1908 is a fantastic design, they're all 70+ years old...
380 runs into much of the same as 32 ACP, although there are options like the Mak or the Walther P380. I've got a Makarov and Browning BDA-380 I can have her try if she'd like.
As Ross points out, B is trapped in the Volksrepublik with me, so the Kel-Tec PMR30 and the FN5-7 aren't real viable options. Even if we did manage to get our hands on one, we would be limited to the 10-round magazines...
One suggestion that's worth investigating is a S&W J-frame in .22 Magnum. IIRC, it's a 7-shot cylinder, and the Airweight comes in exposed hammer or hammerless.
Alternately, the .32 Federal Magnum-chambered J-frame might be a possibility. It can be stoked with .32 S&W for light practice and carried with the Magnum...
Any gun beats no gun. I'm not convinced that even the "notable exceptions not germane" are really exceptions. I'd literally rather be carrying a realistic-looking Airsoft pistol than no gun at all, given the utterly miniscule odds that any self-defense situation will actually require that I _shoot_ the gun. (Which isn't to say I'm not very glad to live in a place where I can carry any gun I can afford to buy, and do carry one that'd do the job if I did actually get that unlucky.)
Also, I suspect that "for any length of time" reflects a standard that is fundamentally broken. If, in a civilian self-defense situation, you're shooting "for any length of time", you are necessarily confronting a problem that you're not really equipped to deal with on your own.
Can she empty the magazine of $gun once without significant pain and with some consistency? If so, then it probably can be an effective carry weapon for her, in theory. Can she form a manageable training regimen using $gun to improve her skills with it, whether or not that regimen fits with the expectations of other shooters? If so, then it might be a good idea to try that. And in the meantime, to carry the .22 if that's what she can already shoot competently enough.
Shooting the same gun comfortably for an hour, pausing only to reload and change targets, is great fun. But it's not a requirement for your carry weapon.
If you fire your carry gun for self-defense in a place like Massachussetts, you will probably bankrupt yourself with the cost of defending against murder (or attempted murder) charges brought by a hoplophobic government. And you'll experience permanent hearing damage, even if you do it in a state where the police reaction will be to compliment you on your grouping, rather than arrest you for defending yourself.
It's worth it, if the alternative is submitting to the will of a subhuman scumbag who's willing to kill you for your stuff. But it kind of makes discomfort from the experience of firing the gun pale in comparison, you know?
As for practical suggestions...well, .380ACP has already been reccomended, and it might be worth exploring. My wife likes it, for example. (She also likes my .45, but not in any gun she could easily conceal.) Even I didn't especially do well with the recoil of a .38/.357 revolver. If she's going to shoot the SIG .22 or something like it recreationally, she'll probably wanty to stick to semiautos for carry, even if only because of the amount of skill crossover.
Other than that? Just try a bunch of stuff, and find something she likes. Or at least something she thinks she might come to like, with practice.
A self defense shooting is not supposed to be fun, comfortable, or last "any length of time". Get the Skeeter for the range, properly lubed it's a great gun. But get something just a bit bigger for carry. It's ok if it hurts to shoot it; as long as she can control it. If she ever NEEDS to pull the trigger, firing a centerfire gun is the least unpleasant part of the whole ordeal.
Wow, Matt just said it way better then I did.
Forgot to mention Jeff Cooper's thoughts on the matter:
"...we must remember that a 22 in a tear duct tends to stop more decisively than a 9 in the wish-bone."
More wisdom here (third section from top): http://www.molonlabe.net/Commentaries/jeff10_3.html
Dear lord not a mosquito for carry. Rimfire rounds are also less reliable as a nature of their design. And the other big issue in PRM is the 10 rd limit. 10 rounds of 22 is probably effective against 2 non-drugged zombies.
Low reliability and low efficacy are a horrid combination.
32 would be a monstrous step up.
Would a FN Five seven be OK? I've heard that the recoil from these is pretty light.
Whoops. Missed that part about the 57 not being on the list. You poor guys....
Jay, I think she needs a Smith and Wesson 351 PD- kick it up to .22 Magnum but in a MA-legal manner. Plus, if she has a failure to fire, she can just pull the trigger again, unlike with auto .22mags. Not to mention it's a beautiful gun, perfectly sized for carry, and has a nice front sight.
Weer'd mentioned a CZ-82. What about a CZ-83 in .32ACP?
http://www.impactguns.com/cz-83-32acp-gloss-blue-13-rd-mags-01305hicap-806703913056.aspx
If worst comes to worst she should definitely stick with CCI Minimags for the Mosquito
An elderly friend of mine likes the .327 Federal Magnum. He said at his age, with his Arthritis, that's about as Big as he can go. Granted, the ammo is getting Rare and Expensive, but if an 80 year old Korean War Vet can handle it, she should be able to do the same. YMMV, of course.
The new polymer Walther PPK and Browning BDA are .380's that aren't "tiny".
I know there are several others in that mid-size, though not if they are Mass compliant.
Ruger SP101 in .327 Federal Mag. Model number KSP-32731X.
You can use shorter .32s for low-power, but not cheap, practice.
If anyone hasn't read this, you need to.
http://www.guns.com/firearms-stopping-power-by-greg-ellifritz-or-which-bullets-work.html
Verifies the old theory, "the first thing to bring to a gunfight is a gun".
Interesting in how little difference there is when it comes to stopping power between calibers.
Then read the whole study:
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't President Reagan very nearly killed with a .22?
Bottom line: your friend could do a whole lot worse.
My advice is ignore polymers completely, reduced weight is bad in this case. Go for metal, full size, and she can probably handle .380 or maybe something better.
Even a beretta 92FS, 9mm, doesn't kick that much in my experience... but then I'm a (small) guy, even if I do have overflexible wrists.
Mind you I was probably more ready for it from all that rifle shooting I'd done in my teens.
It might also be worth testing .45 LC, in cowboy action powderpuff loads.
It worked well enough for this woman:
http://www.wistv.com/story/15140008/female-motel-clerk-kills-robber
Not my caliber of choice, but any beats none.
while the 1908 is a fantastic design, they're all 70+ years old...
St. Browning will frown on you... Jay... it's a BROWNING.
I agree with the comment suggesting
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866
However, also see http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
Jump directly to the conclusion, which is that unless you hit the brain or upper spinal cord for immediate incapacitation, you must sever major blood vessels or organs with a large diameter bullet penetrating 12 inches and wait 10-15 seconds for loss of oxygenated blood to the brain. Can you afford to wait? Probably not.
Recommendations:
1. Practice as often as possible with the .22LR.
2. Practice the Mozambique Drill - 2 quick hits center of mass to torso followed by a careful, precise shot centered on the triangle formed by the eye sockets and the nasal cavity. Repeat as necessary.
3. In Massachusetts with a 10 round magazine limit, carry a Sig P239 with 124 gr Gold Dot JHP (short barrel, standard or +P load, whatever is tolerated by the shooter). Use the standard 8 round magazine while carrying for better concealment but have two 10 round extended magazine spares. Possibly use Hogue G10 grips if the standard grips do not suit her, but understand that the Hogue rubber grips promote printing and snagging on clothing.
http://www.jeffcoopersmozambiquedrill.blogspot.com/
Is the .32 NAA on the list in MA? You may have to have a trigger job (mine had a horrible long hard gritty trigger from the factory) but after a nice TJ it is a sweet firing little piece.
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