The pistol caliber carbine has all the ergonomics of a rifle - meaning that it takes two hands to operate, is difficult to maneuver in close quarters, yet is limited to pistol calibers and the inherent lack of power in those chamberings. The intermediate rifle caliber pistols, on the other hand, weigh nearly as much as a rifle, yet do not offer the stability nor ease of shooting of an actual rifle. The chambering is more powerful than a pistol caliber, but most of that extra power is lost to the shorter barrel.
Pistols are pistols, and rifles are rifles. These are neither:
Pistol that shoots rifle
*or*
Rifle that shoots pistol
Which of the two is more useless*?
That is all.
*Very important note: "Useless" does not translate into "I don't think anyone should own one". "Because it's cool" and/or "because I want one" are perfectly valid reasons for owning either of the above. I just don't get either - although there are several pistol-caliber carbines that I would love to add to the armory!
19 comments:
The reason for PCCs is straightforward: you get increased muzzle velocity, longer sight radius, and the substantial increase in accuracy that comes with a shoulder stock, but you can share ammo (and often magazines) with your sidearm. This was particularly important when somebody might be carrying 30 rounds of .45 for a month, and reloading gear in their saddlebags - adding another caliber becomes a huge problem, stuffing the same cartridges into a carbine not so much.
As for rifle-caliber pistols, I think they're mostly just PDWs for the civilian market. If it wasn't for NFA '34s arbitrary and asinine restrictions on barrel length, these things would come with wireframe sidefolding stocks and their purpose would be much more apparent.
"Because it's cool" and/or "because I want one" are perfectly valid reasons for owning either of the above.
How about "I want an AR that shoots .22LR because both it and its ammo are a lot cheaper"?
Rifle caliber pistols are the more useless.
The pistol caliber carbine is clinging to the ghost of the SMG.
Well the "Rifle Caliber Pistol" appears to be S&W 15-22. Still I'm with McThag
Rifle Caliber pistols don't accomplish a whole lot and are really awkward to carry and shoot.
meanwhile pistol carbines offer something a bit more powerful than a pistol, with minimal recoil and noise, as well as fast and simple reloads.
While for me if I'm shouldering up a gun for practical uses I'd prefer it to be a rifle or a shotgun, there are a lot of people unlike me that the low recoil and noise of the pistol carbine will appeal to.
Oh also when you shoulder up a 16" carbine the muzzle is in the approximately same place as if you were presenting a pistol in weaver or Isosceles.
Rifle caliber pistols make more sense in free states where you can store a loaded pistol, but not a rifle, under the seat in your car.
The plus for a rifle-cal pistol is that it counts for a VA CHP. http://gunnuts.net/2011/05/03/so-you-think-your-gun-is-too-big-to-conceal-carry/ With the right sling technique, I'd think it's even shootable, though I haven't had the opportunity to try yet.
And I'd love to get a Sub-2000 that eats my EDC Glock 17 mags.
The argument is caliber-dependent...
9mm? Yeah- Somewhat pointless.
However-
I do loves my .44 Mag Anaconda, and it's counterpart Rossi 92 in .44 Mag.
http://l2uj.blogspot.com/2011/07/new-hardware.html
TBG
When you have such short barrel on a RCP, it kinda defeats the purpose of the Rifle Cartridge vis-a-vis said Cartridges Ballistics. 5.56 Nato out of an 10 inch Barrel?
Whereas a PCC actually EXTENDS the performance envelope of a Pistol Caliber Cartridge. Think of a 124 Grain JHP 9mm fired in a 4 inch Pistol Barrel, then send the same round Downrange in a 16 inch PCC.
Not saying that a PCC is Better than a Dedicated Long Gun, but I does seem to be more useful as far as Ballistics go for certain calibers, IMHO.
I don't think either is useless. But I have more use for my Marlin 1894FG in .41 Magnum than I would for a rifle calibered pistol.
Some might make interesting car guns, however.
The primary purpose of rifle caliber pistols seem to be to accommodate the artificial constraints of laws, so I'd say those are most useless.
For pistol caliber carbines, there are several benefits:
Fewer calibers. I can bulk purchase 9mm (either loaded ammo or reloading supplies) and more easily take advantage of pricing breaks.
Interchangeable mags. I have a 9mm Cx4 Storm (Px4 magazine style); I have a total of 9 17 shot magazines that will fit my carbine, my Px4 Storm pistol, and my Px4 Storm SC. Grab mag, stick in firearm, shoot - nice and simple.
Recoil sensitive shooters can operate a PCC with little to no difficulty, even if in a pistol they would have trouble with the same caliber.
Training. Daniel in Brookline has a good point about having .22 adapters to practice more with a rifle system.
The rifle cartridge pistol is marketing.
The pistol cartridge rifle is John Wayne.
I have a bunch of pistol caliber rifles, including a Storm in .40 S&W.
I have combos in most pistol calibers and in .30 carbine.
I've just liked the whole idea of rifle/pistol combos ever since I read about it in Zane Grey books when I was a kid.
Sure I don't need it, but I like it. And when the Zombie apocalypse happens, I'll have my Storm combo with matching mags.
As for a rifle-caliber pistol.
I love my Ruger New Model Blackhawk in .30 carbine. It shoots flame from every orifice when I fire.
The range where I used to shoot was pretty dimly lit, it made for a great effect.
Yes it's pretty useless for anything other than just going BOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!, but I have other weapons for other needs.
As you said, "need" doesn't factor into it, although I think the Storms are good, urban PDWs, where you can't fire at targets more than 100 feet away and they have 14 rounds of .40 S&W.
Didn't like the Beretta Cx5 Storm. The trigger sucks canal water (it's a Beretta trigger).
However, I think there's something to be said for a Marlin lever action in .357. Light, handy, with plenty of *splat* out to 100 yards. It works just fine as a deer rifle.
Plus it's easier on the shoulder than .30-06, so it'll see more than the typical box-a-year of ammo.
I'm going to echo what other have said in that a pistol calibre carbine offers minimal recoil and noise along with easy reloads/plentiful ammo, all factors desireable in a home-defense/SHTF weapon.
In the end I like them for the same reason I like wonder-nines.
Yes I know this makes me a heretic in some circles. ;)
I think that pistol caliber carbines are far from useless. They provide an easy to use platform that is inexpensive to shoot and good for young and old people that could not handle a full rifle. Also, in the case of revolver cartridge rifles, they get a massive boost in velocity from the longer barrel. Hot .357 loads that would be normally uncomfortable in a handgun, become much more tolerable and hit at rifle speeds in a lever action. One person actually did some research in using slow burning powders in semi-automatic cartridges. The result was a similar massive boost in performance. From 1200fps to 1800fps.
Rifle cartridge pistol is more useless.
At least the pistol cartridge rifle can feed you on small game, and be used to train for a real rifle, cheaper. (And I know at least one state where that's all you're allowed to use for deer hunting).
My wife would get mighty cross with you if you were to laugh at her M1...
I'll let you know on Monday, Jay... after I take my Winchester 94 (chambered in .44 Magnum) up to VT for the weekend. My 629 will be on my hip, keeping it company.
Wish me luck.
Some states that won't let you deer hunt with a .243 rifle will let you use a scoped .243 pistol.
As someone who has spent some time with scoped 12"-15" rifle-caliber pistols, they fill a variety of specialized niches.
It's a pain in the ass to unlimber a .223 rifle in the front seat of a pickup to get a shot at a livestock-mauling coyote or feral dog (not to mention that some states frown on loaded rifles in the car), but a Savage Striker in the same caliber is easy to rest on the windowsill and pop a 'yote, and it's "just a pistol".
Out in the parts of the world where people shoot stuff other than paper zombie targets, these things get used, which is why they keep selling.
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